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	<title>Comments on: Guest post: Precious PR hacks and why they do their clients no good</title>
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	<description>Everything under Australia’s media and marketing umbrella</description>
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		<title>By: Frances</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-7447</link>
		<dc:creator>Frances</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 01:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-7447</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t believe people are asking for copy?!! How frustrating it is when the lazy and unprofessional people in our PR industry continue to erode what little credibility we&#039;ve manage to retain. Do your job properly PR - create news and provide engaging spokespeople - not advertorial blah. It is just embarassing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t believe people are asking for copy?!! How frustrating it is when the lazy and unprofessional people in our PR industry continue to erode what little credibility we&#8217;ve manage to retain. Do your job properly PR &#8211; create news and provide engaging spokespeople &#8211; not advertorial blah. It is just embarassing!</p>
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		<title>By: Stilgherrian</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-5235</link>
		<dc:creator>Stilgherrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 22:53:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-5235</guid>
		<description>David, I&#039;ve said somewhere else (and I can&#039;t find it at the moment, sorry) that while under &lt;em&gt;current&lt;/em&gt; law Twitter and other social media are indeed &quot;publishing&quot;, I suspect the law and, by implication, social rules need to be adjusted, rather than trying to force a new medium to fit into old models.

Law is meant to serve our needs, not the other way around.

I contend (no research, y&#039;see) that most Twitter users would see a tweet as ephemeral chit-chat rather than An Act Of Publication. And in ephemeral chit-chat, if we offend someone then we usually apologise. Or ignore it and move on.

While technically we might defame someone in a conversation at a pub, if their response was to call in the lawyers we&#039;d probably think they were even more of a tool. We&#039;d tell them to get over themselves and move on. And, except in the case of narcissists and other obsessives, it&#039;d all soon be forgotten.

But what happens now that ephemeral conversations are &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; forgotten, but recorded forever and, potentially, quoted out of context years later? Where the original context might have been ironic rather than literal? As a society, do we &lt;em&gt;really&lt;/em&gt; want to start applying those big sticks to trifling little insults?

Conversely, do we want to slam as &quot;unprofessional&quot; anyone who&#039;s ever said something they later regret, just because now it won&#039;t fade from public record? If so, we wouldn&#039;t have a single person left in the media industry -- or any other industry for that matter.

Time to adjust to a new reality, I reckon. If we can.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, I&#8217;ve said somewhere else (and I can&#8217;t find it at the moment, sorry) that while under <em>current</em> law Twitter and other social media are indeed &#8220;publishing&#8221;, I suspect the law and, by implication, social rules need to be adjusted, rather than trying to force a new medium to fit into old models.</p>
<p>Law is meant to serve our needs, not the other way around.</p>
<p>I contend (no research, y&#8217;see) that most Twitter users would see a tweet as ephemeral chit-chat rather than An Act Of Publication. And in ephemeral chit-chat, if we offend someone then we usually apologise. Or ignore it and move on.</p>
<p>While technically we might defame someone in a conversation at a pub, if their response was to call in the lawyers we&#8217;d probably think they were even more of a tool. We&#8217;d tell them to get over themselves and move on. And, except in the case of narcissists and other obsessives, it&#8217;d all soon be forgotten.</p>
<p>But what happens now that ephemeral conversations are <em>not</em> forgotten, but recorded forever and, potentially, quoted out of context years later? Where the original context might have been ironic rather than literal? As a society, do we <em>really</em> want to start applying those big sticks to trifling little insults?</p>
<p>Conversely, do we want to slam as &#8220;unprofessional&#8221; anyone who&#8217;s ever said something they later regret, just because now it won&#8217;t fade from public record? If so, we wouldn&#8217;t have a single person left in the media industry &#8212; or any other industry for that matter.</p>
<p>Time to adjust to a new reality, I reckon. If we can.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-5205</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 07:11:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-5205</guid>
		<description>Stigherrian - Twitter may be a form of expressing a current emotional state but it is still a publishing medium, just like blogs, just like newspapers, just like TV.

It is still open to the same rules of society and the same laws of defamation and libel. 

So i would  be very careful about calling someone a &#039;complete slut&#039;, even if that is how you feel at that point in time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stigherrian &#8211; Twitter may be a form of expressing a current emotional state but it is still a publishing medium, just like blogs, just like newspapers, just like TV.</p>
<p>It is still open to the same rules of society and the same laws of defamation and libel. </p>
<p>So i would  be very careful about calling someone a &#8216;complete slut&#8217;, even if that is how you feel at that point in time.</p>
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		<title>By: mumbrella</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-4830</link>
		<dc:creator>mumbrella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 03:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-4830</guid>
		<description>Hi MS,

Thanks for your comment.

I think the &#039;lazy journos&#039; view when press releases are recycled is itself something of a lazy stereotype.

From what I&#039;ve seen of it, this tends to happen when there is simply not enough resource. Journos are expected to produce a great deal of content, so they have to cut corners to get it out.

Even if time available means they are producing an inferior product, most journalists are working harder than ever before. But lazy doesn&#039;t come into it.

Cheers,

Tim - Mumbrella</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi MS,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment.</p>
<p>I think the &#8216;lazy journos&#8217; view when press releases are recycled is itself something of a lazy stereotype.</p>
<p>From what I&#8217;ve seen of it, this tends to happen when there is simply not enough resource. Journos are expected to produce a great deal of content, so they have to cut corners to get it out.</p>
<p>Even if time available means they are producing an inferior product, most journalists are working harder than ever before. But lazy doesn&#8217;t come into it.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Tim &#8211; Mumbrella</p>
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		<title>By: MS</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-4822</link>
		<dc:creator>MS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 03:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-4822</guid>
		<description>Jason, Having been a &#039;media hack&#039; for longer than I care to remember and now a &#039;PR flack&#039; I have seen both sides of the game close up and personal. Yes there are PRs out there who don&#039;t have a clue and give the rest a bad name, but there are just as many journos who are so lazy they will take a PR release and use it verbatim because they are too idle to pick up the phone and do some work. They are also happy to let PR people see and change their stories which has led to a culture of companies expecting to be able to control the media. The real issue is that we now have a host of &quot;newsrooms&quot; across the nation filled with journos who are no longer given proper training and who have few role models as many experienced journos have taken the proffered redundancy package and walked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason, Having been a &#8216;media hack&#8217; for longer than I care to remember and now a &#8216;PR flack&#8217; I have seen both sides of the game close up and personal. Yes there are PRs out there who don&#8217;t have a clue and give the rest a bad name, but there are just as many journos who are so lazy they will take a PR release and use it verbatim because they are too idle to pick up the phone and do some work. They are also happy to let PR people see and change their stories which has led to a culture of companies expecting to be able to control the media. The real issue is that we now have a host of &#8220;newsrooms&#8221; across the nation filled with journos who are no longer given proper training and who have few role models as many experienced journos have taken the proffered redundancy package and walked.</p>
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		<title>By: Stilgherrian</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-4754</link>
		<dc:creator>Stilgherrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 May 2009 00:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-4754</guid>
		<description>Why should anyone apologise for expressing their current emotional state, even if it&#039;s frustration, and even if it&#039;s &quot;strong language&quot;? All Twitter does is put the previously-private and previous-ephemeral conversations into permanent, searchable form. Gossip in public, if you like.

Yes, we all have some new social rules to learn — but in the long run I actually think it&#039;s A Good Thing that we start presenting one, unified face to the world, not a split personality of an all-roses-and-rainbows but ultimately dishonest &quot;professional&quot; face on the one hand, and a separate, honest face that we reserve for our friends on the other.

What&#039;s pathetic is that the anonymous person who posted the random Twitter grabs didn&#039;t have the spine to post under their own name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why should anyone apologise for expressing their current emotional state, even if it&#8217;s frustration, and even if it&#8217;s &#8220;strong language&#8221;? All Twitter does is put the previously-private and previous-ephemeral conversations into permanent, searchable form. Gossip in public, if you like.</p>
<p>Yes, we all have some new social rules to learn — but in the long run I actually think it&#8217;s A Good Thing that we start presenting one, unified face to the world, not a split personality of an all-roses-and-rainbows but ultimately dishonest &#8220;professional&#8221; face on the one hand, and a separate, honest face that we reserve for our friends on the other.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s pathetic is that the anonymous person who posted the random Twitter grabs didn&#8217;t have the spine to post under their own name.</p>
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		<title>By: marklen</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-4644</link>
		<dc:creator>marklen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 23:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-4644</guid>
		<description>Wow, Twitter post was bad form. Apologise. Quickly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, Twitter post was bad form. Apologise. Quickly.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-4630</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 13:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-4630</guid>
		<description>Jason - you say you are &quot;more than comfortable with my conduct&quot; when you call Jennifer Hawkins &quot;a complete slut&quot; and then toss out that line about Myer and &quot;Asian sweatshops&quot;?

The rest of your Twitter comments are not really an issue, just an expression of what was happening and how the situation made you feel. Maybe a bit tactless, but no crime.

But the &quot;complete slut&quot; and &quot;Asian sweatshop&quot; remarks are downright rude, churlish, aggressive and offensive - equally so that you think those are acceptable.

How would you feel if a PR posted similar comments about you and your magazine, trashing your brand and reputation? Would you feel aggrieved if the PR shrugged and said he/she was &quot;more than comfortable with my conduct&quot;? I think not.

So, in the light of Pru&#039;s apology to Jason on behalf of her fellow PRs, as a journalist I would like to apologise to PRs for those remarks of Jason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason &#8211; you say you are &#8220;more than comfortable with my conduct&#8221; when you call Jennifer Hawkins &#8220;a complete slut&#8221; and then toss out that line about Myer and &#8220;Asian sweatshops&#8221;?</p>
<p>The rest of your Twitter comments are not really an issue, just an expression of what was happening and how the situation made you feel. Maybe a bit tactless, but no crime.</p>
<p>But the &#8220;complete slut&#8221; and &#8220;Asian sweatshop&#8221; remarks are downright rude, churlish, aggressive and offensive &#8211; equally so that you think those are acceptable.</p>
<p>How would you feel if a PR posted similar comments about you and your magazine, trashing your brand and reputation? Would you feel aggrieved if the PR shrugged and said he/she was &#8220;more than comfortable with my conduct&#8221;? I think not.</p>
<p>So, in the light of Pru&#8217;s apology to Jason on behalf of her fellow PRs, as a journalist I would like to apologise to PRs for those remarks of Jason.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Posters</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-4561</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Posters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 10:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-4561</guid>
		<description>There sure are some angry, hostile PR/advertising people out there. And they&#039;re commenting right here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There sure are some angry, hostile PR/advertising people out there. And they&#8217;re commenting right here.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Whittaker</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-4533</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Whittaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 22:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-4533</guid>
		<description>Not quite sure how I&#039;ve been tripped up, AdGrunt. What exactly has been exposed so publicly? My frustration with dealing with PR people who expect too much and do their brands damage as a result? Well, guilty.

I&#039;ve written a wholly positive piece on this particular company; any bad PR that comes from this is entirely their own doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not quite sure how I&#8217;ve been tripped up, AdGrunt. What exactly has been exposed so publicly? My frustration with dealing with PR people who expect too much and do their brands damage as a result? Well, guilty.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve written a wholly positive piece on this particular company; any bad PR that comes from this is entirely their own doing.</p>
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		<title>By: AdGrunt</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-4532</link>
		<dc:creator>AdGrunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 22:25:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-4532</guid>
		<description>Jason,

In the hubris of a piece in which you challenge PR people&#039;s skills, you have been hung out to dry by your own PR petard.

In a double whammy, it is ironic that some low-level investigative blog-journalism has tripped you, a journalist, up so publicly. It&#039;s not a shame, it&#039;s an internet blog.

There may be some empathy about your points, but you increasingly appear on the back foot about them.

Which is what PR is all about...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason,</p>
<p>In the hubris of a piece in which you challenge PR people&#8217;s skills, you have been hung out to dry by your own PR petard.</p>
<p>In a double whammy, it is ironic that some low-level investigative blog-journalism has tripped you, a journalist, up so publicly. It&#8217;s not a shame, it&#8217;s an internet blog.</p>
<p>There may be some empathy about your points, but you increasingly appear on the back foot about them.</p>
<p>Which is what PR is all about&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Whittaker</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-4531</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Whittaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 21:55:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-4531</guid>
		<description>On the question of showing copy to story subjects. Clearly the ideal situation is to never do it. The &#039;give them an inch and they take a mile&#039; philosophy certainly applies. But when you&#039;re NOT the Financial Review and when you work on titles that are so recognised in particular sectors and have a close relationship with readers you have to make the call each time about the value of having the story verses any restrictions that might be put on it.

IF a company demands to see copy, we make it very clear this affords them the right to amend FACTUAL ERRORS ONLY. Any changes they make are mere suggestions; I feel no obligation to change anything if I don&#039;t feel it&#039;s warranted. I make that clear up front. What goes to print is MY story each time.

It&#039;s less than ideal but sometimes you have to play that game in b2b. And if you draw clear lines and maintain your right to reject any changes they think are necessary then I&#039;m reasonably comfortable with how it works. Until the corporate communications department decides to play rough, that is....

Kind of a shame that &quot;Anonymous&quot; has dug up my personal Twitter stream demonstrating my frustration with a particular matter (with tongue firmly planted in cheek, clearly) rather than add to what is a good debate on the relationship between journalism and PR and how both sides need to manage this. I think the example I have is a really instructive case on how NOT to manage media relations. I&#039;m more than comfortable with my conduct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the question of showing copy to story subjects. Clearly the ideal situation is to never do it. The &#8216;give them an inch and they take a mile&#8217; philosophy certainly applies. But when you&#8217;re NOT the Financial Review and when you work on titles that are so recognised in particular sectors and have a close relationship with readers you have to make the call each time about the value of having the story verses any restrictions that might be put on it.</p>
<p>IF a company demands to see copy, we make it very clear this affords them the right to amend FACTUAL ERRORS ONLY. Any changes they make are mere suggestions; I feel no obligation to change anything if I don&#8217;t feel it&#8217;s warranted. I make that clear up front. What goes to print is MY story each time.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s less than ideal but sometimes you have to play that game in b2b. And if you draw clear lines and maintain your right to reject any changes they think are necessary then I&#8217;m reasonably comfortable with how it works. Until the corporate communications department decides to play rough, that is&#8230;.</p>
<p>Kind of a shame that &#8220;Anonymous&#8221; has dug up my personal Twitter stream demonstrating my frustration with a particular matter (with tongue firmly planted in cheek, clearly) rather than add to what is a good debate on the relationship between journalism and PR and how both sides need to manage this. I think the example I have is a really instructive case on how NOT to manage media relations. I&#8217;m more than comfortable with my conduct.</p>
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		<title>By: AdGrunt</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-4527</link>
		<dc:creator>AdGrunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 20:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-4527</guid>
		<description>^^^ Gold ^^^</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>^^^ Gold ^^^</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-4518</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 13:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-4518</guid>
		<description>So the PR folks you dealt with were unprofessional, you thought...

http://twitter.com/thetowncrier

6:17 AM Apr 29th from TweetDeck in reply to SnarkyPlatypusI am so FED UP WITH BEING TOLD WHAT TO DO BY CORPORATE PR HACKS!! I DON&#039;T OWN SHARES, I DON&#039;T CARE ABOUT YOUR SHARE PRICE. FUCK OFF.
6:08 AM Apr 29th from TweetDeck in reply to wolfcatFor the record, I&#039;ve heard Jennifer is a complete slut and everything at Myer is made in Asian sweat shops. Just so you know.
6:06 AM Apr 29th from TweetDeck Now I have the entire Myer corporation on my ass worried their contract with little Miss Universe could be under threat. Seriously.
6:05 AM Apr 29th from TweetDeck Seems Jennifer didn&#039;t think on the cover of Australasia&#039;s premier logistics management publication was a good portfolio piece...
6:04 AM Apr 29th from TweetDeck Had some wacky experiences working in b2b. Could write a book. But this might be wackiest yet: apparently I&#039;ve pissed off Jennifer Hawkins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the PR folks you dealt with were unprofessional, you thought&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://twitter.com/thetowncrier" rel="nofollow">http://twitter.com/thetowncrier</a></p>
<p>6:17 AM Apr 29th from TweetDeck in reply to SnarkyPlatypusI am so FED UP WITH BEING TOLD WHAT TO DO BY CORPORATE PR HACKS!! I DON&#8217;T OWN SHARES, I DON&#8217;T CARE ABOUT YOUR SHARE PRICE. FUCK OFF.<br />
6:08 AM Apr 29th from TweetDeck in reply to wolfcatFor the record, I&#8217;ve heard Jennifer is a complete slut and everything at Myer is made in Asian sweat shops. Just so you know.<br />
6:06 AM Apr 29th from TweetDeck Now I have the entire Myer corporation on my ass worried their contract with little Miss Universe could be under threat. Seriously.<br />
6:05 AM Apr 29th from TweetDeck Seems Jennifer didn&#8217;t think on the cover of Australasia&#8217;s premier logistics management publication was a good portfolio piece&#8230;<br />
6:04 AM Apr 29th from TweetDeck Had some wacky experiences working in b2b. Could write a book. But this might be wackiest yet: apparently I&#8217;ve pissed off Jennifer Hawkins.</p>
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		<title>By: Precious PR and how it harms clients &#124; importance of ideas...</title>
		<link>http://mumbrella.com.au/precious-pr-hacks-and-why-they-do-their-clients-no-good-5106#comment-4497</link>
		<dc:creator>Precious PR and how it harms clients &#124; importance of ideas...</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 09:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mumbrella.com.au/?p=5106#comment-4497</guid>
		<description>[...] Read more: Full article features as a guest post on mUmBRELLA [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Read more: Full article features as a guest post on mUmBRELLA [...]</p>
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