‘Boys club’ ad agencies warned they are alienating female clients at pitches
Ad agencies are turning off potential female clients by arriving up at pitches with a “boys club” lineup, pitch consultant Darren Woolley has warned.
Speaking at Mumbrella Question Time in Sydney, Darren Woolley, boss of consultancy Trinity P3, responded to a question about the lack of women in senior roles.
He said: “This is a big issue for advertising agencies. We’ve run a number of pitches in the last 12 months where the team from the marketing side is all women and then the agencies turn up time and time again with the boys club and you can just see there’s this mismatch of communication. What one person’s saying the other person’s not listening to.”
And he revealed that one agency made an even more disastrous presentation, turning up with one “token” woman who brought cups of tea to her male colleagues.
Meanwhile, Mark Collis, director of creativity, brand and strategy at Telstra, said that within his company, there were several women in senior roles. He said: “I feel like I’m in a minority in those senior positions.”
A former ad agency ECD, Collis added: “From the creative side there is definitely a lack of women in senior roles. I cant work out what the answer is.”
He joked: “Maybe men are just more creative than women.”
Henry Tajer, chairman of mediabrands and president of the media federation of Australia said the issue was one for media agencies too. He said: “Sixty per cent of media agency employees and staff are women.” Referring to Tracie Michael who he appointed to run Mediabrands agency Initiative, he said: On a quick count, there’s only one agency in Australia that has female leadership.
“That has proven to be a gap in the market. What we will look for is opportunities to seek out female CMOs and female CEOs and give them that point of difference.”
Deborah Thomas GM of media, public affairs and brand development at ACP and one of the company’s longest serving editors, said that many boards were an old boys network “bringing their mates in.”
She said: “Women are not very good at putting themselves forward. We’re not as proactive as we should be. We just hope that when we work really hard someone is going to come and tap us on the shoulder.”
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He joked: “Maybe men are just more creative than women.”
Boys club attitude in action.
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He joked: “Maybe men are just more creative than women.”
HILARIOUS. Funniest joke I’ve ever heard.
As a 25 year old female working in advertising……. FML
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Totally agree with Deborah Thomas’ point, “Women are not very good at putting themselves forward. We’re not as proactive as we should be. We just hope that when we work really hard someone is going to come and tap us on the shoulder.”
I think there are ways in if we women are willing to put ourselves out there, step up to the challenge & take that sort of responsibility on.
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The industry does little or nothing to accommodate women as they go through lifestyle changes especially if they have kids or other commitments. If you want more senior women in the industry, this has to be given serious consideration. The boys club don’t ever think of this because (in my experience) most of them seek wives outside of the industry.
As per the comments above, Mark Collis’ ‘joke’ neatly displays just what women in this industry are up against. The imbalance in language around gender for example.
Men are confident, women are arrogant. Men are forceful, women are aggressive. Men are assertive, women are bitches. Men are creative, women are what? Playing with crayons?
Any woman who has been in the industry for any length of time knows exactly what I’m talking about. For men who can’t understand it, trust me, every woman does. Often, you can’t necessarily articulate what it is, but you know it when you see it / feel it.
Not too long ago I was working in collaboration with a ‘hot’ creative agency, and in meetings with the most senior people the ‘hot’ agency MD couldn’t physically look any of the women in the eye. Every comment he made or question he asked was addressed to the men in the room, even if they were the most junior people there. Now I’m sure he would say he wasn’t being sexist, but it sure felt like it to me!
It’s time the boy’s club owned up to this behaviour and sorted themselves out before this industry get’s it’s own McInnes style comeuppance.
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this is a really serious issue for the industry and it’s a complex one to understand, let alone diagnose and fix. It’s not helpful to fall back too heavily onto cliches and perceived wisdom.
For me the most insight comes from the numbers – 70% of all client service entry level intake are female, but only about 15% of senior management are women. Simply from an efficient use of resources perspective, this means that 85% of our senior management come from 30% of our intake, which is crazy.
my belief as a headhunter is that there really isn’t huge quantities of sexism at the senior levels. In fact, I am far more often asked for a girl than a boy in the off the record bit during briefings, even at department head and MD level. (The exception is when targetting somebody to move into an MD-level position for the first time, when I think the prospect of hiring a woman for an important 3 year minimum term and then seeing her take time off to have a baby is scary for some group CEOs. If the woman has ‘had her kids already’, this is seen as an (unspoken advantage over somebody who hasn’t – by a few, but not by the majority).
It’s also a fact that a lot of women choose to step back their professional commitments at jsut the time when they would be moving into senior management – the 34-38 type age bracket. Often this is for child/family reasons and very often smart senior women know the reality of what leadership positions demand and really don’t want to do the juggle with their family lives. Often it isn’t about kids, it’s more an acceptance of the lack of desirability of these jobs anyway – and really, who would want to be the MD of a multinational agency with all the demands, pressure and lack of freedom you have – and potentially in this, women are more balanced (read smarter) in their ambition.
For me, the best solution is probably the most impossible to achieve. We need to find a way to make the leadership and senior positions in the industry less demanding (particularly on time) and agencies need to become capable of adding more flexibility to bring a better balance to those positions.
But to do that, agencies need to upwardly impact on margins and to adjust and amend their service/servile mentality to their clients.
And that will take proper leadership. And to find that, we need to keep our best people in the industry. Paradox anybody?
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@Rascal: I recently worked at a digital agency where the MD was incapable of looking women in the eye – and would instead stare at their breasts. Multiple inappropriate comments were constantly made, and there was no woman in senior management as a permanent…
Sexism is alive and well in digital
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Anyone read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell? It’s the same reason why most CEOs are over 6 foot tall. There is something built into our society and, even more fundamentally, our DNA that sets the parameters in which we operate. i.e. we gravitate towards ‘powerful’ leaders and women don’t feel empowered to seek the job with the corner office.
Is that the fault of the agencies? No. Would agencies benefit from some form of positive discrimination? Probably not. However it is a condition to be aware of. Take Mark Colly’s comments for instance, “We’ve got a woman on the board.” Yeah, your HR Director. it is an emotional role for emoitionally intelligent people. Therfore we feel more comfortable with a woman in that role, guys feel too girly to go for it (in teh main), and women do feel empowered in this space. You look around and find any businesses whose HR Director isn’t a woman. Does thsi make Mark misoginist? No. But this slightly off-kilter POV on a question about leadership neatly encapsulates the dynamic I’m trying to describe.
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PS – Sorry about teh AWFUL typing!
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Working client-side is easier than working in an agency. Shorter hours, less stress, often better money. Proper businesses also have things like good maternity policies and vaguely humane HR practices.
Advertising is brutally hard. Competitive at every level. The hours are terrible. The stress levels are through the roof. We fight each other for accounts. We fight each other for briefs. We compete ruthlessly for awards.
Is it any wonder that marketing tends to attract women, and advertising tends to attract men?
Women are smarter about this sort of thing than men are.
So we could bitch and moan about not enough women in advertising. Or we could ask the question: why are clients staffing their marketing roles so heavily with women? Every time you get a male client, you almost do a double-take they’re so rare.
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Rascal…. I know exactly what you mean. I’m a woman in a Senior position and I’ll take my most junior male staff with me to meetings (as a mentoring exercise) and have had male suppliers/clients pay complete attention to the male and ignore me – even when I’m the one that’s doing all the talking – or assume that the male is the most senior person and realise after I start talking that I’m the more senior person there… it’s a real issue in the industry and it’s completely insulting. I actually steer clear of people like this in the industry and they end up losing business.
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Mark Collis admits at the end of that piece that his comment was flippant – and I take that to be another example of men just not ‘getting it’! The one thing he is right about is that it is a tricky situation and one of which he clearly has no understanding.
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I wonder if it is also a personal issue. Whilst I agree and have had similar experiences to those of you before me here to make comment, I very quickly put an end to this type of behaviour. I don’t stand for that ‘assertive vs bitch’ label either.
Let it be known, as an individual, that you won’t tolerate it – to be outspoken midst meeting can be very embarrassing for your target.
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If you were at the B&T awards last Friday night this was very clear…and it hasn’t changed over the years one bit!
Where were the senior women claiming awards on the stage…for some line ups it was all blokes..
It’s not very inspiring for all the young women in the industry climbing the ranks…they need inspiring senior women to mentor them and show them the way.
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I have worked at quite a few agencies with young female creatives but inevitably they are retrenched when business is lost of they get fed up with the lads culture amongst the male creatives and go freelance.
Rob, there are plenty of women in senior planning/account roles, it’s the creative dept. where the lack of women is most obvious.
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I am seriously shocked to think that in this 21st century the most of these posts are supportive and understanding of this ignornace.What is wrong with you women out there.Kick some arse and stand up..the old ‘behind every good man is a woman’ is so boring!! Women in most of the training and education sector ( my working world )lead the way!!! Stop being passive and be noticed, and if your male subbordintaes get the attention…..walk!!!! they soon learn who is doing the real work….This is not to take away from the men either, just let us get some balance PLEASE. Merry Xmas to you all 🙂
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Rob’s remark, “There is something built into our society and, even more fundamentally, our DNA that sets the parameters in which we operate. i.e. we gravitate towards ‘powerful’ leaders and women don’t feel empowered to seek the job with the corner office,” is, frankly, rubbish. This has nothing to do with DNA and everything to do with socialisation and dysfunctional operation of power in a bully-boy culture. (Witness all the remarks above from women who’d love that corner office.)
And his remark about HR Directors being mostly women – “… it is an emotional role for emoitionally intelligent people. Therfore we feel more comfortable with a woman in that role …. this slightly off-kilter POV on a question about leadership neatly encapsulates the dynamic I’m trying to describe” – only shows his (all too common) misunderstanding of the un-tapped power of emotional intelligence in the exercise of true leadership – the type of leadership that can generate true innovation and progressive change.
As any wise business analyst will tell you, it is those organisations with the greatest diversity who will have the best ability to innovate, adapt and thrive.
I suspect the problem with the advertising industry is that it is a dinosaur, with too much money and too little at risk to continue to do anything but play things in the dominant blokey fashion. Ultimately though, its days will be numbered – and the true creativity of the diversity of imaginations in our world will prevail.
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Working in Media in Asia we have the opposite problem – from the MD down to the most junior ranks in many markets we have 100% women. A problem also in pitches when the marketing team is very male dominated.
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“Maybe men are just more creative than women.”
Maybe the entire problem is that he, and every other man that says this, isn’t joking.
They believe it.
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Have to agree with flesh peddler on the point about the demands being placed on the senior levels of agencies.
Being at a high level of seniority at a media agency myself, there are a huge amount of sacrifices that you have to be prepared to make over the years to climb to these levels within the industry. Over these years, I have seen more and more women bow out of an industry that makes it harder and harder to stay in.
Media agencies continue to devalue our expert skills to the demands and competitiveness of trying to hang onto clients and win new business. In the end winning clients that pay the lowest of rates for our services… how do you expect to keep great women in these roles when you cant pay them what they are worth and
and expect them to do the work of more than 2 people.
Its no reason that women move over to client side for less hours and more pay, or leave the industry altogether. Its an industry that simply cannot sustain the continuity of the working woman.
For those of us that stay, there becomes a point where having a family comes to the forefront and the fact that the industry finds it hard to facilitate women having children becomes a huge concern for our future careers in the industry. With the demands placed on the industry, its hard enough to fit in having any sort of life, let alone giving time to a new family.
On top of this, the “clicky men” mentality is still alive and strong in some agencies, where your personal life and needs fall well below the demands of the agency to perform and deliver for their business. Which is all well and good when you have a wife at home looking after your kids, the house and your dinner every night.
I think the answer is simple. Women in media… just need to get ourselves a wife!
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@Rascal I recently freelanced at an agency where the ECD had a TV installed on their wall & tuned to the fashion channel so they would be ‘surrounded by pretty girls’ 24 hours a day.
When people are still getting away with sh!t like that, any talk about the issue is just that – talk.
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Mark Collis thinks that “Maybe men are just more creative than women” is a joke. Perhaps he should aquaint himself with Telstra’s policy on discrimination:
“At Telstra any behaviour which involves unlawful discrimination, harassment, bullying, or victimisation is unacceptable conduct. Telstra does not tolerate unacceptable conduct in the workplace.”
“You must behave in a professional and appropriate manner at all times when representing Telstra”
“Motive or intention is irrelevant”
“It is possible to discriminate against, harass or bully another person, even if you did not mean to unlawfully discriminate against, harass or offend or bully them. Your intention is irrelevant.”
“Your behaviour can amount to unlawful discrimination, harassment or bullying even if you:
think your behaviour is acceptable, and/or
do not mean to offend anyone with your behaviour.”
“Examples of unlawful discrimination include, but are not limited to:
offensive ‘jokes’ or comments about another person’s racial or ethnic background, religion, sex, sexual preference, age or disability
including offensive or derogatory material on a social networking site to which your colleagues may have access
making offensive or demeaning comments about particular groups, such as ethnic, religious or political groups
judging a person based on their religious or political beliefs, cultural practices, sex or age rather than their work performance ”
Mark Collis may think it is a joke, but many women would find his comments offensive.
Telstra HR – are you going to do anything about this?
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Flesh peddler and Hmmmm seem to have a realistic take on it.
Rightly or wrongly advertising is all consuming. At some stage many people realise it’s really not that important, especially when you have a family.
Leaving early to pick up kids, taking days off because they are sick, maternity leave, not working late nights and weekends. Not the best way to get ahead.
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I laughed.
Then again, I’m in the minority.
*Cue outraged posts from here-on.*
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What about people of colour?
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@Chi I have heard a lot of complaints about that agency in St Leonards with the Fashion Channel on 24/7.
I am very surprised to hear it is still going.
@Mad Hatter is spot on. Mark Collis should not be in that job if he harbours such sexist beliefs, and then laughs it all off as a joke. Get a grip Collis.
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Bizzare debate that should have [insert race, colour, religion, age difference] as well.
Until we really want this to change – it won’t. While we rely on a panel of 5 blokes and 1 women to unintendedly drive the interest and discussion of this issue – it won’t.
What we really need is all of our many ‘representative’ bodies to give the subject the obvious attention required and do something about it – from award to media, to direct to digital ones.
My suggestion would be to establish a Terms of Reference and get a scope outlined, spend money on an accurate assessment of the current state of play by ‘channel’ (ie style of agency/client) by ‘work-stage’ with all variables covered inc education/intuition/wage, commission some really good research into why this actually exists from a management, business and individual POV, develop a recommendation for discussion/consultation with all that creates an almost ‘industry policy’ perspective of what the industry should be trying to achieve and a, once agreed, create and develop a program that helps all deliver by outlining and financially supporting the steps that are required to deliver objectives (note – this could be govt and industry funded ‘cos it’s such a good idea!)
Until we step back and get some empirical thoughts process around this not much will change, but there will be a lot of impassioned debate and argument.
Time we moved to action me thinks….
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I like the sound of Andrew’s idea but history tells us that industries won’t change until they have to. Maybe agencies should be more transparent about their levels of gender equality and clients should be more discerning about the ethics of the agencies they choose.
In my experience, when a young woman presents a half decent idea, their (male) managers look surprised.
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If the fact that Australia has a lack of women in senior roles is due to some mysterious DNA factor or the fault of women themselves for not being assertive enough why is this not an issue in other countries? In 1994 I went to work for a top 5 US agency and was thrilled to find the president of the agency was a creative and a female.I had come from a major Australian agency where the most senior women was the head of the social committee. When I returned to Australia in 2002 it felt like it was still 1994. Women if you’re frustrated by the boys club get out go client side and then only hire agencies (and other suppliers) who get it. We have to force change to happen. That’s what I’m doing and enjoying every moment!
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Andrew…were you a member of the Rudd government?
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CMO…the below are all female MDs or above of top 20 agencies of the past 5 years. There are more than this.
Simone Bartley
Marie Jackson
Naseema Sparks
Lindsey Evans
Melinda Geertz
Michelle Stott
Julie Porter
Judi Lewis
Amy Smith
Penny Sarfati
Victoria Curro
Lois Donaldson
it is just not true to suggest that women aren’t in charge of agencies here or that there are major prejudices working against them.
Agencies are not perfect and I agree that there are some ‘clubby’ agencies out there where the culture and attitudes are too blokey. I can think of 3 in particular of the top 20 and potentially one more so…less than 20%. Too many, but certainly not a majority.
I reiterate that more agencies wuold like women running them than have them, but there just aren’t enough women putting themselves forward for these roles and this is what needs sorting out.
And that is where CMOs come in, because it is definitely true that the demands and margins placed on them by CMOs have made it more difficult for the workplace and role flexibility that most women desire and some women need
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@flesh peddler – what? Feel better now?
Policy is a really interesting thing – it needs people to agree with it or they won’t be involved without penalty. It isn’t arbitrary and it needs collaboration and it needs agreeable outcomes – it isn’t like an ad that can or cannot work…i think this is what the industry needs as all stats suggest women are being under-represented and under-valued by their male counterparts…
‘A policy is typically described as a principle or rule to guide decisions and achieve rational outcome(s). The term is not normally used to denote what is actually done, this is normally referred to as either procedure or protocol”
If you can think of a better way to achieve I’m all ears – but putting others down for your gain is the essential problem here – thanks for pointing it out xx
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ps – @flesh pedlar.
good point on the female MD’s/CEO’s, all of them great people and i have worked with 5 of them…but exceptions/exceptional people do not a policy make
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Interesting flesh peddler how many on your list have survived? ie are currently in senior roles. I know at least half of these were shafted.
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It’s obvious that Mark Collier thinks he is a character in Madmen.
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CMO,
to say ‘at least half of them were shafted’ is perpetuating a victim mentality that is as unhelpful as Mark Collis’ idiotiv comment.
I would say
– a couple of them were over promoted/unsuccessful
– some of them were definitely good enough but left the business for a variety of reasons – health, client side, own agency
– some of them still there with varied success
one of them would (imho) have a legitimate boys club complaint although I don’t know the full story and another didn’t have a job post maternity although the agency lost masses of business during that 12 months and she hasn’t been replaced
so, some fuel to the fire for sure, but we have to get awa from too many conspiracy theories. it just isn’t black and
Now…how about your side CMO? How many fee/margin reduction conversations have you had with agencies over the past 3 years?
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Andrew,
it was an off the cuff comment – I didn’t mean to offend you, but the way you presented your plan, which is certainly worthy, seemed a little turgid and time consuming. I was too flippant so my apologies
apologies to all for my shocking spelling. It’s not me, it’s my keyboard – the letters keep moving.
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“I’m not a person who thinks the world would be entirely different if it was run by women. If you think that, you’ve forgotten what high school was like.”
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, former U.S. Secretary of State, on women in leadership
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Oh for goodness sake, this conversation is so boring. If female clients feel outnumbered at pitches, they won’t hire the agency. In the same way that men won’t if they feel outnumbered by women. Maybe there are more men in advertising than women. So what. In return, there are many associated industries that are predominantly female-led – look at Experiential, Marketing, Internal Comms, PR… In fact go and see the current UTS show where most of the architectural students are women. Mark Collis was being flippant. He looks at ideas, not the sex of the person conceiving them. I have worked with him and know for a fact that he takes care to nurture talent in both men and women equally. And race too for that matter!
I’m a woman in a senior role and I have never been judged by my sex – if anything, like the other talents I was born with, I’ve used it to my advantage. I have many female friends who are the same. I am so over these conversations. I’m also fed up with people moaning about what’s holding them back. There are so many amazing opportunities for everybody out there. Get on with creating good work and nobody cares two hoots what’s in your trousers.
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Sorry Flesh peddler how many on your list are currently in senior roles?
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‘Flesh peddler’ makes some very astute observations.
There are many reasons why there aren’t more women in senior roles.
1] As flesh peddler noted when many women reach the point of achieving senior management other things can become more important in their lives – like having a family
2] When it comes to pregnancy –
a client can change brand managers/marketing directors as often as they like and the agency won’t change, but an agency can’t keep changing the GAD’s etc and expect the client not to change agency.
3] Flexibility with job sharing/hours etc is easier for large businesses but often very disruptive to small businesses – and most agencies are small businesses.
4] Therefore, providing more flexibility can lead to less secure client/agency relationships. This adversely effects ALL female employees, not just those seeking more flexibility.
We all want more opportunities for women – but perpetuating ‘the men’s club arguement’ doesn’t advance the discussion.
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@ M Bulkley Thats like saying…no one’s ever been racist to me therefore racism is a figment of your imagination! How lucky that you’ve not been subject to sexism in the workplace. Many, many women can attest that they have been. I could make your hair curl with some of the things women have tolerated in this business in order to stay employed. How lucky for you that you’ve not had that experience.
Remember the original announcement of the make up of the Communications Council…apparently not one senior woman of note could be found. Only after an industry-wide outcry forced their hand did they *somehow* manage to find and appoint two very capable and experienced women from the industry. And how many of the original board members are at agencies that are on every pitch list and leading the industry. It’s telling isn’t it.
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@Anonymous #40
It’s not just unethical to discriminate against women who may or may not one day get pregnant, it is also illegal.
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CMO
not sure exactly, as I’ve lost track of a few of them but at least 4 are running their own businesses/consultancies within the broader industry including a couple of them running their own agencies and a good number are still in the business at the helm.
it seems to be that you’re going back towards a conspiracy theory. Before you do that, remember that there are a lot of male ex agency MDs too who are currently not running agencies.
Not everybody is good enough to run an agency (and that’s my overall point – we need to keep more of the good women in the industry and we do that by offering better conditions
Now then…how about you answering my question again. How many margin/fee reduction conversations have you had with your agency/agencies over the last 3 years and are you prepared to admit that you are part of the problem?
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Didn’t Mark Collis come off well?!!!!…..NOT
He should be very embarrassed and obviously needs some assistance with public speaking and getting his point across in a politically correct manner – we are in 2010 buddy.
Deborah Thomas responded very well to the question – thank goodness someone on that panel took the question seriously and made some intelligent points.
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Burlesque Dancers with tasseled nipple pasties gyrating at agency Christmas Party in front of drunken, creepy colleagues. A safe, empowering environment for women? A space where they can advance their skills and develop their confidence based on their own merits as opposed to the image of themselves they see reflected in the male gaze? Where a woman is free to be subject and not object? I don’t think so.
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Flesh Peddler no conspiracy theories here, just the facts. Compared to other countries women continue to be underepresented here in senior roles. You may have read my post, I don’t advocate a victim mentality I do advocate moving to the client side and being part of the solution by hiring agencies who get it. I work with a number of agencies and have been happy to accomodate part-time client service reps and have taken other measures – including continuing to remunerate agencies fairly and staying loyal when being courted by potential agencies who are offerring to cut fees.
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M Bukley – I agree with Rascal… you are obviously a minority amongst women here and so so lucky that you have not been exposed …
I’ve got LOADS of stories to tell right throughout my career. One thing you should note – you say this is boring and why is it holding women back?? This ain’t holding me back – it’s made it harder – but as a woman in a senior position – I got here by not letting it hold me back – in fact I’ve done alot of standing up for myself… and most women in senior positions will tell you the same.
Talking about it brings light to the issue, which is important because some people don’t even realise they are doing it because they have worked in an environment that is ‘just the way it’s always been’. It’s quite sad sometimes when male (and sometimes female) colleagues who I respect makes a comment or takes an action or the absence of a comment/action and doesn’t even realise he or she is being discriminative or sexist. One thing I’ve learned that works – confront it head on… you will be surprised how embarrassed people get when you make them think about what they’ve said, done or haven’t done – and they certainly don’t do it again.
If you talk to women who have undergone discrimination – most will tell you that it doesn’t hold them back, it just makes them work harder. In fact, I don’t even see this issue going away any time soon… It will change eventually, when the industry has more experience appointing and working alongside women in senior positions – to realise just how backward it is to have the perception and attitude towards women that some still have.
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final points from me as I have flesh to peddle
The vast majority of agencies would hire women for exec positions if they were the best candidate.
A minority of them would prefer to hire women given two equal candidates
A minority of them either consciously or subconsciously prefer to hire men given equal canddiates
Discrimination exists in many forms in agencies and the world – against women, old people, people of colour, even men against other men. None of it is good.
For me, the biggest form is actually vs those over 45 – older men in particular are almost impossible to place. but that’s a different thread
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Come on – women can’t have it both ways..
You can’t be willing to accept all the pretty young things (women) getting hired by agencies (70% as mentioned above) and then bitch at a lack of representation at the top. Why aren’t you complaining that young men aren’t getting hired in equal numbers? Is it because you are happy to use your gender when the discrimination is on your side?
Where is the sisterhood complaining about that?
You also can’t complain of sexist treatment when you don’t have a problem with ‘flesh peddler’ ‘accepting clients who blatantly want a woman which is a clear breach of the law.
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@Dan: who is currently hiring the pretty young things? The majority of male management.
I certainly have an issue with that imbalance, and I do have an issue with it. It’s still the same people who aren’t hiring women at the exec level, who are hiring the PYT’s at the lower levels. It’s the same issue….
I do have a problem with ‘sperm for the firm” and yes, I’ve had a director say to me that having dinner with a client shouldn’t necessarily rule out sexual activity – as it would be ‘sperm for the firm” (for the women banging on about putting up with it – I quit on the spot”
Complaints? Not really – commenting on an imbalance due to the fact that there is, and it can be proven a boys club.
But keep in mind, Dan, that certain types of men are also discriminated by this old boys cabal. I take serious issue with that also.
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We’ve had a female ECD for twenty years (Prue Kirkcaldie) and I can’t remember anyone ever questioning it. We have pretty young things both male and female running the day to day activities of the business, from suits to creatives to media etc. I could list you heaps of agencies in the Richmond/inner Melbourne area that are the same, with a fairly even spread of males and females across junior and senior roles.
But Starship are an INDEPENDENT agency and from the sounds of the political bitching, the bulk of commentators above are working for multi-nationally aligned agencies and I suspect their hiring policies are probably out of step with Australian values, god knows the shit work they turn out sure is.
Hey Flesh-peddler, (which I assume is code for Head Hunter/Human Resources) do you get different briefs from independent agencies to those you get from US, UK or French owned groups? Do the multi-nationals actually stipulate ‘bogan blokey, real Ozzie men” for management positions, cause they think they’ll fit in with our country’s reputation around the world, (Hoges/Mel Gibson/Russell Crowe) or is it more subtle?
And as far as that kind of ‘Fashion TV show on 24/7’, you’d get eaten alive by the Gen Y’s in my office if you tried that sort of thing, what sort of turd would do that? What kind of culture within employees would allow it to go on? (Mind you, it does really sound like the Sydney agency culture so many people complain about – so maybe it’s more than one agency?) Will someone please, please name the agency so I can interview them for Marketing Magazine? I reckon that’d be a hoot.
‘So John, what do you do for motivation at (insert their name here)? Oh really? and how do the female staff feel about that John? Oh, you haven’t asked, or you don’t give a fuck…”
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A number of commenters on this stream fail to understand is that this is an endemic, cultural issue. It’s not ‘exceptional’ and unfortunately it’s not unusual. Failing to see or understand the issue doesn’t mean it’s not there. Because you, yourself have not been victimised or had the experience, does not mean there are no victims.
There are all sorts of exceptions one can discuss. But they’re called exceptions for a reason. It’s not proof that there is no problem.
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I’ve been looking for a female for a very good senior management role for six months and have struggled to find practically any candidates at all despite looking at just about all the recruitment agencies.
Where are you all hiding. Has one practically invisible Recruitment agency got enormous numbers of women on the books looking for management roles.
If so do everyone a favour and do tell.
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This is a really fascinating topic and such a good video.
I think that men are definitely more confident in telling their superiors what they want. The lack of women on paid boards has always bothered me too but why aren’t women talking about how to get onto them?
Another thing I’ve noticed is that all the editors of Australia daily newspapers are male!!!!
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Oh Mark. I’ve always had respect for you, but wow. The truth is that that is the way many male creatives talk amongst each other, but to hear it publicly is a real slap in the face. I have been doing this creative caper for a while now and though I’ve won awards and produced numerous big campaigns for clients, I have been constantly overlooked for promotions. When I see male senior creatives at events, there is a real ‘boys club’ feel and almost dismissive attitude. It is very hard to stay confident, but I know that I am good at what I do. I have had a male art director of very limited talent lecture a gorgeous young female creative on what a pity there are no ‘quality’ senior female creatives in the industry- in front of me. She pretty much stopped acknowledging me after that in an effort to fit in with the boys. The sad thing is, I recognised her as myself- 9 years earlier. I always thought the industry was equal, until I got to a senior level. Trying to be one of the boys is fun while you’re young and I do adore hanging with creative people, but it has certainly not helped me as I attempt to be recognised for my work and paid what I deserve- oh, let me tell you, the pay differences between males and females in creative is shameful. Yes, we are aware of it! I have often thought that my mates in marketing are much smarter than me- they are clever and feisty and are rewarded with promotions and serious cash. Me? Not so much. But the problem is, I love doing what I do. Thank you Simone, for asking the question. Because it is a vicious circle and it needs to be addressed. There appears to be no jobs for senior women, so the senior women are forced to leave the industry, then there really is no great senior women around. Good on the few really great CDs and MDs who do see the value in senior female creatives. And for their talent, not tokenism. Shame on the ones who have a track record of never employing a female creative or employ young cuties on no pay and then trying to crack onto them.
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I find all this a bit hard to take in. I won’t mention my name or brag as that would be a ‘male’ thing to do. But in an industry that is supposed to celebrate ‘breaking the mould’ and ‘defying convention’, the women complaining about a lack of female creatives are using the worst argument in the book. Sexism.
Not every CD out there is like that. I hire teams based on their work. I don’t hire teams based on the fact they’re British. I don’t hire teams based on the fact they’re female. I don’t hire teams based on the fact they’re blokes.
I hire teams that I feel will get the best work done under the circumstances we’re given. Some are female or part female, some are male, hell some I would have thought might even be transgender. It doesn’t bother me.
Another thing I should ad, is just because someone is a bloke it doesn’t mean they’re a part of the ‘boys club’. Many women are part of that club as well, it should be called croneyism. There’s nothing more embarrassing than having to nervously laugh along with the jokes of top management, but at least the GAD (all are female in our agency) and yourself can go for a beer afterwards and bitch about what a bunch of tools they are.
I hope, in the future, things will be different.
But advocating to hire someone just because they’re female is worse discrimination than advocating there should be more talented people in the creative department. And if someone has pox, bad breath, weird eccentricities or a pair of boobs doesn’t get in my way of hiring, nurturing and supporting these people.
I wish the argument was about talent and not sex, as all the debate does is further perpetrate an ‘us against them’ mentality.
In reality, most talented creatives are completely ok with having a female or a male boss, as long as they’re not a d*ck or a c*nt. Pardon the crass pun.
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Scarier than not having enough women in the creative department, why do over 90% come from private schools and over 80% come from overseas, with a vast majority from Britain?
If it’s relevance you’re after, surely you should be hiring locals instead of people from overseas, whether they’re male or female?
If you want people who can identify with ‘greater Australia’, surely you should also hire people who didn’t go to an exclusive school in the inner city?
Just a thought.
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The boys club certainly is alive and well in Australia, with misognistic values high on the list for our esteemed ‘suits’ in particular.
When recently in New York, this was the hot topic of dinner conversation from some Aussie ex-pats.
Personally in the past year, as a just turned 40-something woman, have decided to hang up my ad agency shoes purely for this reason.
It is a shame as I love the business. However, when you don’t feel welcome any longer, it is time to bow out.
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11:17, I’m sorry to hear that. I’m a white, heterosexual, government educated boy from a lower-class Aussie background. I believe we shouldn’t blame men, but the men that go to old-boys network schools, or the english ‘faux-ristocracy’.
Funnily enough, the best people in advertising, ie Bill Bernbach, Lee Clow, weren’t part of this old-boys, bohemian grove network. They did it differently, and it worked.
If you love the business (judging by your comment I’d rephrase that as you love the work, not the business), please don’t give up. We need people like you to take the sceptre away from these pompous, privately educated or (small minority) mother-superior complex British pomps and give them a true run for their money.
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As a small marcomms agency, we struggled to attract talent in management and account handling, till we set up job sharing at a very senior level. We have tapped into that group of people, especially young mothers, who want to continue their careers but have time with their children. We now have truly brilliant staff and it shows.
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