The Gen X media has misinterpreted Stephanie Rice’s Gen Y ‘faggots’ tweet
In this guest post, Mat Baxter comes to the defence of Stephanie Rice over her much criticised “faggots” tweet.
We should all be ashamed. I certainly was as a gay guy this week as Stephanie Rice, a perfectly decent and respectable Australian, was subjected to a totally indefensible attack from a small minority of gay people who desperately need to get a grip on generational reality.
Does anyone really think that Stephanie Rices’ use of the word “faggots” on Twitter was in any way genuinely intended to be derogatory or offensive to homosexuals? Of course not. In fact, her use of the word “faggots” is a stark reminder of the enormous divide in language (and culture) between younger Australians and their older counterparts – including the hugely over sensitive Ian Roberts.
A recent South Park episode dramatises the basic premise of this arguement. In that episode a relatively innocent Stan and Kyle use the word “gay” to describe the things that are crap or lame. Here the traditional meaning of the word “gay” is entirely lost on them because, in the school playground, the term is used in a completely different way.
This is a real reminder of how seemingly offensive words can be interpreted differently from generation to generation. While the word “faggot” might be divisive and derogatory for the over 30s it is commonly used in a far less offensive way amongst those who are a little younger. In fact, one of the most popular events in Sydney’s gay scene is called “Fag Tag” which attracts a predominantly under 30s crowd. Clearly the name hasn’t proven too offensive to this age group because it has been running for more than six years.
The drama with Stephanie Rice this week is a perfect example of how the meaning and “sting” of words evolve and erode over time as they move through the generations. Sure, she used the word “faggots” in a nasty way in her tweet using it to insult the Springboks but did she really mean to bring all the historical and negative baggage associated with the word along for the ride? My guess is no. I’m not excusing Stephanie’s behaviour but believe “Twittergate” has been blown entirely out of proportion this week.
When all is said and done I seriously doubt Stephanie has a single bad thing to say about gay people. Instead I think a Generation X media has minsterpreted the language of a Generation Y celebrity. Let’s hope there’s a little more tolerance practised by those who demand it for themselves so often… gay people and journalists included.
- Mat Baxter is the outgoing chief strategy officer of Mediacom and will shortly become CEO of Universal McCann
Tim Burrowes founded Mumbrella in 2008. He worked on Mumbrella until 2021. At various points he was editor, content director and editor-at-large.
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This is about sensitivity to others. The term is derogatory and divisive to many. It’s not up to you or anyone else in ‘Gen Y’ to say these terms are no longer offensive – they clearly still are. Until they are not (like the term Gay) then it’s just not very nice or civil to use them (list many offensive words here to make the point). If you broadcast something that risks being offensive then you live with the consequences. Congratulations to Stephanie for apologising.
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Yeah, the word faggot, or the word gay, have taken on a new, totally non-homosexual meaning, but kids still know what they really mean. The maybe-gay kid in the playground is still going to be called a faggot in the same way he was 20 years ago.
And don’t forget too, the actual phrase was ‘suck on that, faggots’. That emphasises the derogatory homosexual overtones.
Sure, Stephanie Rice *meant* no offence, but that doesn’t make her words any less offensive.
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You are correct. While what she said may have been slightly without thought (she was watching a rugby match so was probably not thinking too much), the only people who would be offended are those people looking for an agenda to push or media outlets who will be happy to cash in on anyones misfortune.
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OK, I’m 50+ and straight, with kids who also use “gay” to mean “lame” or whatever. I’m no language fascist, but it’s quite clear from observing my kids how the term derived its current meaning: homosexual = lame, therefore gay = lame.
As for “suck on that, faggots”, I think it’s just revolting. Language changes all the time and I constantly pull myself up short for perceived rigidities, but I don’t see how that particular phrase adds anything but vilification to private and public discourse.
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I thought exactly the same thing when this all blew up. It’s a bunch of Boomers and Gen Xers with their undies in a twist because a Gen Yer used a common turn of phrase in a tweet. I could just picture some ponytailed agent telling her how she needed to handle this controversy and how much she needed to cry in the emergency press conference in order to appease a whole bunch of people she shouldn’t care about anyway.
I actually said to my partner, “You know I wish one of these kids had the balls to say ‘Hey, that’s the way I speak, because you know what? THAT’S THE WAY PEOPLE SPEAK. Jesus, get a grip.'”
The sad thing is, none of this would have happened if she was fit and competing at the Commonwealth Games. Her name would be all over all the coverage and all her sponsors would be basking in the glow of association with her. Her sponsors are probably all thinking of ways to get out of their commercial relationships with her because she can’t deliver the visibility that they had planned on in 2010, and she being a normal person who speaks normal English like normal people do has just handed them a get-out-of-sponsorship-deal-free card.
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I am pretty shocked that this got published here.
I’m under 30 and these days the word ‘nigga’ or ‘nigger’ has a pretty relaxed colloquial usage in youth culture.
So is it chill if i start dropping it in public?
Or is it a word that should only be used by the community that it refers to, to empower themselves, taking the sting out of a word by taking ownership of it?
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That being said, my partner has been known to use the phrase “dirty black-hearted cheating Afrikaner bastards” during discussion of rugby matches, so perhaps she’s not the best person to bounce ideas off on this topic.
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OMG IT’S THE WAY PEOPLE SPEAK!
Thank you for identifying the underlying homophobia still present in society.
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I’m with Mat on this. I’m gay. I’m also grown up. There are things worth being “touchy” about and there are things that aren’t. A bit more common-sense and a little less feigned outrage could go a long way in virtually all spheres of life. She made a flippant comment, clearly without thinking – and it should have been left at that. I would have raised my eyebrows in conversation with her, but I wouldn’t have crucified her and stomped all over her for it.
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I’m in Gen Y – whatever the hell that means, there’s no generational divide in this argument, that claim is utterly spurious – and I thought it was offensive, and monumentally stupid. You might not find it offensive, and that’s fine. But people of all generations do find it offensive, and a highly sponsored public face should know better than to use patently offensive terminology.
Lastly, claiming that it in no way referred to gay people is just wrong. What do you think SUCK ON THAT refers to?
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It’s an interesting perspective – I’m not sure that I agree though.
A part of the gay community using a pejorative term about itself is quite different from using that term to abuse people for losing at sport. The idea of re-claiming terms of abuse has a long history, but while I, as a minority / disempowered / discriminated against group member may choose to use a derogatory term about myself, it doesn’t make it acceptable for general purpose use.
And while I don’t think she intended it in a homophobic sense (apparently she “luvs the gays”) the actual issue is really about whether it’s ever ok for people who are, however ridiculously unqualified, public spokespeople and popular heroes.
Personally, I think our insistence on confusing people who are physically gifted in some way with moral authority figures means we have some serious societal issues, but that’s a whole other debate.
If you take the cash, you need to behave with the degree of propriety the brand expects.
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How do we know Stephanie Rice is “a perfectly decent and respectable Australian”. All I know about her is that she is a good swimmer, had a free Jaguar for being a good swimmer and uses revolting language.
Maybe this could be a wake up call to Gen Y that it is not all about them, and that their actions have consequences.
I don’t still use the same language I did in the school yard (rad, westie, you’re dropped!) so why should Gen Y?
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Awesome that this happened though. Yeah, she didn’t mean it in a homophobic way, like, ‘ZOMG – all those Sth African ruggers are buggers!’ But yeah, it’s also offensive in that ‘homos are lame’ way that informed this kind of phraseology to enter the Gen Y lexicon (tries hard to stifle laughter) in the first place. BUT, if the Twitter and old media backlash, combined with her tearful – and clearly, sincere apology – makes just one kid look up from their iPhone and go: ‘Whoa, maybe equating fags with lame-o’s is actually kinda…gay’, then it could ultimately be, dare I say, FTW.
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Ahh … the old ‘chime in and get unique visits’ post.
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Also, check out the comments on, for example, the Sydney Confidential article about the incident.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com......5914509683
That shit is horrifying, and that’s the attitude of a lot of Australians, which IMO makes it extra important for someone like Roberts to push back and say that it’s not ok.
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This post is so incredibly offensive itself. Anger over her use of such a disgusting term, linked to extreme hate and marginalisation, has absolutely nothing to do with your age.
She might not be a homophobe, but she broadcast a homophobic term to her legion of Twitter followers without second thought. That’s offensive regardless of your age.
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Sorry mate, not buying your cooler-than-thou generational posturing. “Faggot” is and always has been a deeply offensive, abusive word that has been closely associated with intimidation, abuse and violence towards gays. As a gen X-er I can assure you that it, along with certain terms of racial abuse, “Faggot” has ALWAYS been used in multiple ways, some of them affectionate, depending on who says them and when. Your generation has changed nothing. Gays have been calling each other faggots since I was a kid in the 80s and probably earlier, so “Fag Tag” aint anything new. The fact is, and always has been, that some people are not allowed to use certain words, because they take on a different meaning and power depending on who says them. It was always OK for gays to call each other fags, and it was always NOT OK for bogans to use the term as an insult. I wonder if you, Mr Gen Y, have ever been beaten senseless by someone screaming “Faggot”? Maybe you haven’t, and if not that might explain your interesting view of the world. Maybe your generation has been on the receiving end of less violence and abuse than mine was, I don’t know. If so maybe you should thank us for that instead of smugly posturing about how much more in touch and cool you are. You say Ian Roberts and other “over sensitive” gays don’t represent you. Well you certainly don’t represent me, or anyone else I know, from whatever generation. So please stop pretending to speak for anyone but yourself when you defend Rice, least of all a whole generation of people. You sicken me.
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I’m Gen Y, and I’ve never put up with the careless mentality that results in words like “faggot”, “dyke” and “gay” being used in a derogatory way. This isn’t a “generation to generation” issue, it’s a “culture to culture” issue.
It’s not okay to not to think before you speak. It’s offensive and unimaginative, but more than anything, it shows a lack of compassion. And there is no excuse for that, no matter how old you are.
Gen Yer Matt Mitcham gave a much more sensible wrap up to this issue. It’s about forgiveness, not excuses.
http://www.samesame.com.au/new.....ti-gay.htm
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While the comments show that there *is* a bit of feeling out there regarding this, I can’t help feeling that the *amount* of coverage this is getting is in no small part due to the fact that: on day 1, you get to publish photos of a pretty girl in a swimsuit, then draped all over a fast car. Day 2, you get a pretty girl *and* a pretty guy in swimsuits. Day 3, the pretty girl has tears streaming down her face.
I have to admit I gave this a few more clicks than my interest in hate-free public discourse alone would have. And clickz iz king.
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So it’s perfectly fine say to women ‘Suck on that, bitch!’ when in a position of domination? Thanks for the clarification!
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It’s already been said far more eloquently than I will, but I have to add my disgust. It doesn’t matter what she *meant*. She’s making it ok to use that term. Others copy what they hear and see in the media by ‘personalities’.
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What a marvellous example of concern trolling. You almost sounded sincere.
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Your argument sounds a little bit “blame the victim” to me.
The problem is not that people over 30 (the victims) are too easily offended, it is that a comment was made by a high profile “commercially branded” sportstar and electronically transmitted to all her twitter followers (and then retweeted) without warning, context or explanation and with very little thought as to who those recipients may be and how those recipients would interpret the message.
When it comes to Twitter and other social media far too much emphasis is put on the word “Social” and not nearly enough on the word “Media”.
As a producer of high profile comedians – I give this advice before my clients tweet anything. If you wouldn’t make the statement in a media conference or interview DON’T put it out there on Twitter or Facebook.
Because the last thing you want is having to hold a press conference the next day to apologise for a comment “you would never say ordinarily”…. yeah right, Steph.
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Great post Matt Baxter
I agree Steph use of word was totally out of context. She said it collectively like a sledging commet to a whole group of South African Team Rugby players in the context of a recently rare Australian win. This as you say should not have been used by Roberts to wrongly publicse what is a not so common term but it is not a swear word and can mean so many things. Its quite obvious even if Homosexuals had adopted the term it is for them to see and undestand that society no longer suggests that homosexually is wrong generally. It remind me a bit of the modern use of the word lame & I think Roberts attack on Rice was just that !
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Erm, no. Faggot is still offensive when it’s used in a denigrative way. Rice used it in a denigrative way. Did she mean to cause the offence she did? Doubtful.
I don’t mean to step on someone’s foot. I still apologise for it when I do it. Rice apologised for it, which was nice of her. She also deleted the tweet and tried to pretend it never happened. That was cowardly of her.
The use of the word “gay” to describe something as negatively is homophobic. You can learn to use that word by living in a society which is homophobic without being consciously or actively homophobic yourself. Again, if you stomp on the toe, apologise.
As for the usage of “Fag” by queer people, in a non-negative manner? Yes, we can do that. If you refer to a friend who is gay using the word as a ter of endearment and they are comfortable with the word, it’s not an issue.
You’ve successfully managed to conflate two very different usages of a term and, possibly through naivete, ignored any subjective context.
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There are a lot of alarmists sitting on some very high-horses up here.
Think about the situation for a minute; watching rugby with mates in the middle of the night = probably had a skinful of piss. Things get a bit emotional. You jump around and then say something stupid.
Whoever hasn’t done anything dumb after a few sherberts, put both hands up and reply now.
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I agree.
She was silly but oh goodness! the reaction/fallout is over the top. Ian Roberts is going to object to fairy bread next.
Interesting that if she or a guy had used the C-rhymes-with-punt word [as thugby league guys do] there wouldn’t have been such an outcry. And no one would have blinked an eye if she said “the Boks played like girls”.
Apparently it’s okay to use females and female genitalia as an insult but woe betide those that insult homesexuality or burqa (that’s a different rant). It’s all a bit too precious for me.
I’m not saying it’s right. I loathe the use of gay as a way to say something is bad. I am mortified when my children say this in front of my gay friends… thing is, my children acept and know and like/love my friends, know that they’re gay, couldn’t care less really but… still… that word is a part of their generation’s lexicon. It’s not right, not right at all but this is all too much. The focus is wrong.
Rice is a product of their generation. She makes the same stupid mistakes. The focus should be on how this generation is going backwards…
I’m more offended at this; “…Probs the best game I’ve ever seen!!” Obviously she knows nothing about Rugby to have said that. This is the worst Wallabies team ever. If I was a Wallaby circa late 90s, early naughties I would be kicking up a major fuss. 😀
[and Craig… Rugby Union requires intestinal fortitude, astute intelligence, cognitive strategy and the knowledge that ‘you’ is its own plural… ].
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celebrity Ian Roberts and wannabe celebrity Mat Baxter starring in “PR 101”
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hahahaha – yeah – leave the stupid slut alone!
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Mat, you are a complete apologist for this girl. I understand the word ‘gay’ is bandied about a lot by my generation (surprise!), but I still bristle everytime I hear it. ‘Faggot’, on the other hand, is not. If someone even mentioned that around me after a few drinks I would seriously throw a punch. And are you such an intellectual lightweight that you need to reference a cartoon to back up your argument?
As for Stephanie, she had me at “I’ve also learnt that some things you say can mean more to others than they do to you.” All is forgiven. As for you, Mat, you seem to have lost any self respect a gay man should have in order to climb your way to the top.
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Max, good on you.
Since when did everyone get so f*cking sensitive!?
The sooner the gays get over themselves and get on with life the better.
Next time you’re at a Pam Ann show laughing at her jokes about ‘you poofs’, think about how hypocritical you’re being
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I’m amazed at the naivety and stupidity of the phrase, ‘a small minority of gay people who desperately need to get a grip on *generational reality*.’. What absolute rubbish! So, just because it’s a common epithet used by youth, it’s okay, it’s acceptable? We’re not talking about using usage patterns for twitter or facebook here, we’re talking about a derogatory term which can and has had lasting effect on making gay youth! It’s comments like these that provide air and sustenance to intolerance and hatred.
A ‘generational reality’ is not an excuse. It’s a lazy generalization more suited to focus groups and whiteboards discussions over soft drinks than as a useful phrase in this debate.
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Just because people say it, doesn’t make it okay.
And I’m interested in how many times people have used the word “lame” to mean “bad” in this thread. That is also considered hurtful to many. English is a rich language, with many useful words that don’t hurt anyone. To choose to use words that do hurt people and claim that you “didn’t use it that way” is an exercise in power. Not to mention plain lazy.
For a conversation about the use of language, there isn’t much thought going into language at all here, more just concern about being able to use hurtful words and get away with it.
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I’m Gen Y, and I’m offended by this article – do Gen X really think we have no class at all? I’ve forwarded this article to my best friend, who is Gen Y AND gay.
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Nothing to do with generations misunderstanding it. The term was offensive and she’s learnt a harsh lesson. It was meant as an insult (and not as homophobic) but it was using it as an insult which says it’s something less to be homosexual.
And FWIW, I think it was the media that has made this into something, not public “over-sensitivity”. When any tweets get publicised they get a million times more attention than they deserve.
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What BS.
Anyone who feels it’s OK to use “faggot” needs to be consistent, walk into the South Bronx and tell those “niggers” to lighten up. It’s a slur on the same level that people outside that community have no right to use, whether you like it or not.
I’m not PC by any stretch. But put-down words are put-down words. And “faggots” still has edge.
“Gay” has changed. It doesn’t mean what it did before. But “faggot” is still a slur.
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Mat – your spelling mistakes and cartoon references speak volumes of your depth of understanding of language and culture.
Hopefully you at least understand my sarcasm.
People still use the word faggot in a derogatory sense. Stephanie Rice did it. The fact that we as a community hold an event called Fag Tag means we still associate the word faggot with being gay. So using a word that is commonly used to describe homosexuals to deride somebody implies that homosexuality itself can be an acceptable basis for derision.
Children understand the word gay to mean several things – lame, stupid, unattractive and, still, homosexual. You and the makers of South Park seem to miss the point that this effectively means that homosexual = lame, homosexual = stupid, homosexual = unattractive.
We wouldn’t be having this conversation if she had used the word nigger. We accept and respect that is wrong. It’s about time we were shown the same respect.
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Just because you find it offensive, doesn’t mean everyone else has to.
The point about Fag Tag is a great one.
You CAN NOT use the word, then cry about it when someone else does.
HTFU 🙂
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Funny – but the same Ian Roberts said in his Australian Story interview in 2005:
“When I used to get called faggot on the field by one of the other players it wasn’t because I was gay, it’s just someone picking at you to try and get the better of you.”
http://www.abc.net.au/austory/.....468762.htm
Maybe League players can call other league players faggots and that’s OK?
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Once again a commentator who thinks differences in sensibillities and standards can all be explained by pigeon holing people into their respective generations. And of course we should all be cool and modern enough to allow Gen Y to express themselves in the any particular freeform way they choose. By your logic if someone from Gen Y tells me to Get f**cked in the middle of the street I have to suck it up because that’s just the way they communicate. It would also imply that if words like faggot can become orphaned from their original meaning and used as a general insult, then bitch, and the n and c words can be used just as generically. While the Stephanie Rice thing has been blown out of proportion,
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…it does not justify such a ridiculous and apologist arguement, for those who show no respect for others.
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this is what happens when we let media/advertising people comment on real issues
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Next week on Gruen: Mat Baxter creates an ad for Mother. MOTHER – TOTALLY NOT FOR FAGGOTS.
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I can’t believe everybody here is so freely using the word ‘lame’ to mean ‘bad’. Maybe you don’t mean any offence, but it’s derogatory and insulting to people with mobility issues.
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Not nearly the same, and you know it. Don’t be such a smug jackass.
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I think Matt may be trying to secure some of his own publicity here.
I respect Jaguar for dumping Rice. What value does she ad anyway? I think Jaguar achieve greater ROI from dumping her.
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Suck on that niggers!
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@45 Mike: Please stop insulting my donkey.
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Language, what a wonderful beast.
Wonder if anyone here would be offended if I called them a langer.
Yet: http://langer.urbanup.com/2012209
many regards
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Fag Tag is an event for gay people.
Gay men are allowed to reclaim words like “faggot” and “queer” and “poof” as badges of pride and survival.
Straight women cannot use these words as an insult.
This is discrimination 101. It doesn’t matter how nice she is or if she “is” homophobic. I don’t care if every day she texts all her gay friends to tell them how lovely they are. She used a homophobic phrase and that is unacceptable.
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LOL!
@Franksting – I’m going to use that one!
I think it’s safe to say that faggot is one of those words only the poofs can use. But if anyone else does *OMG!!! QUICK!!! CALL THE POLICE!* happens
I use it, I’m gay, and I don’t care if someone calls me a faggot. It’s just a word 🙂
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I think the really fascinating thing here is the fact that the media hops onto it’s high-horse every chance it can get – and then repeats the very thing that it says is offensive ad-nauseam in its articles and news bulletins.
The Red Faces black-face scandal, the Bingle photograph, Sam Newman…
The Big Brother turkey-slapping incident was only seen by a dozen or so people before media picked it up and exposed it to millions.
Our mainstream media make sure that everyone gets their chance to be equally offended by whatever is the scandal of the week.
The problem we have is that there are so many “faux-rages” – media outlets and publicity whores scoring points by pretending to be outraged at something – that when a matter deserving of condemnation comes along it’s easily dismissed as just another PC wowser wanting their head on the telly.
If something is offensive then it shouldn’t be repeated. If it is, then I guess it can’t be that bad.
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@maeve, no that’s not how it works. If it is _so_ insulting, then no one should say it
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I am Gen-Y, and heterosexual, and I find Rice’s comments to be extremely offensive and insensitive.
Neil Gardiner – perhaps we got ‘so f*cking sensitive’ because gay hate crime is still an extraordinary concern in our community, and linguistic violence forms a subset of that abuse. It is not being politically correct to hold a belief that people have a right to live their lives without having to be subjected to such derogatory labels.
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What is a gay person had said “Oh look at those fags/poofs”
Would that have caused the same uproar?
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Jag did the right thing by turfing her.
Offensive or not, the comment was crass and, yes, a turn-off to those a bit older. Gen-Y isn’t exactly the typical Jag customer.
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These kinds of stories don’t reflect very well on Mumbrella’s editorial judgment.
Cynical pageview-bait.
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Bullshit.
Unless you are seriously suggesting she did not understand that she was attempting to insult people by infering they were gay, your argument misses the point completely. Even then it would be awfully ignorant.
You say you are not defending her while doing exactly that, and with an argument that has little substance at that.
It’s not okay to use a term for a minority group as an insult, through intent or ignorance.
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Ian Roberts is desperately trying to get his mug on the screen to raise his profile and attempt to get some work, he is a failing actor and to be honest im getting pretty annoyed by him sticking his mug in whenever someone says something about “gays”.
Ian Roberts = mad flamer
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And Neil, I think you’ll find that violence – including bullying – always inspires resistance. Foucault wrote that the ratio of resistance increases in direct proportion to the violence that opposes it. There are obviously multiple forms of resistance, but one of the most common of these is reverse discourse – taking repressive language and adopting it to liberating effect. @maeve was completely correct – key to this form of resistance is the adoption of pejorative labels, where those subjugated individuals take on the language used by their oppressors as a way bolstering themselves against the abuse.
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I have canvassed this topic with a lot of my gay and straight friends. Gen, X, Y and BB. Their feelings are if it is Ok to use the word faggot, then we can use the word Nigger, nigga, coon, boong, nip etc and it wont offend. Their point is, it is an offensive word and she should have thought before she Tweeted (at least re read it before yo press that button) and now she is paying the price for her lack of experience. She is big enough to apologise and she does seem to truly regret her actions. Just one of lifes lessons. What you might not find offensive, others will and in this day and age, we need to be respectful of that. It probably wouldn’t hurt if we all thought before we spoke, took the time to re read whatever we post as nowadays, that shit will come back to bite you!
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Porch Monkeys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2DxyAGzGxM
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Just because ‘that is the way people speak’ doesn’t mean it is right. Get a grip. She was deriding a team for losing and her way of doing it was by calling them faggots. In her eyes that was the most contemptuous insult she could use. Just because you didn’t take offence perhaps merely suggests to me you find nothing wrong with homophobia. Because regardless of how innocuous you think that comment is, it is in fact a homophobic slur. Yes I am gay and yes I get offended when I hear someone use that language. The reason I do relates to intent and a blatant lack of respect. Personally I don’t care that she is an elite athlete. This is not about her being a role model. This is about her using language that is bigoted and insipid. So if she had said ‘suck on this niggers’, would you still brush it off as a brain snap?
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I would normally have quite a lot to say in opposition to what Mat has said here but I’m a little overwhelmed and quite mad actually.
I would instead ask that Mat, you go take a look at this:
http://www.thinkb4youspeak.com/
You do not speak for all gay people and you certainly don’t speak for me.
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Mat, you used such a weak argument, you really should have thought this through, it was clear before you wrote this that the strength of feeling out there was string and as such any public comment you were prepared to make on it was going to be critiqued, alas it was and you appear to have failed the test.
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Well as a bisexual man (what the f_ _K has my sexuality got to do with it?) I think Matt Baxter is copping a flogging on this post.
– Where is AdGrunt BTW?
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Does it really matter if it was misinterpreted by a Gen group? In the social media space it will only takes the smallest minority of the community to be upset by that type of comment and it can have massive consequences, like getting dropped by Jaguar. You would have thought that after her Facebook incident she may have realised that as a high profile athlete people are watching her everymove waiting for a slip up!
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Um, this is filed under “opinion” right? Surely Matt’s entitled to his. Get a grip.
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Expressing an opinion is one thing. Preaching to your elders is another.
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Stephanie Rice’s comment “Suck on this faggots” is no more insulting to homosexuals than the phrase “Suck on this wankers” is to serial masturbators like us at the ACL
http://the-acl.info/post/steph.....an-ideals/
Nevertheless, we take the view that Stephanie Rice is a poor example to Christians, since she is nowhere as homophobic as The Australian Christian Lobby.
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@68 The Differentiator
Hardly preaching but then you’re entitled to your opinion (a beautiful thing isn’t it).
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@Bob Whidon – CLASSIC
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Thanks Bob for the link… very funny stuff! I especially loved the bit about the Internet filter and all those damn IT people opposing it with their “facts”!
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As a Gen Y, I have to warn you that you may take this differently to that way I mean it: you’re a stupid f**kwit.
I don’t know you, you might not be, although the opinion expressed in the story is stupid and seems to be more about you not wanting to come across as a “thin skinned gay”. Well, good on you.
But pretending that the way Gen Y’s use the word has a different meaning is rubbish. It has certainly been used in the playground since I was in it and we knew what we were saying. I asked my 12 year old nephew is he understood it to mean when they called someone a f**got and he was completely across what it meant.
The only thing you seem to have used to back up your ignorant piece is an episode of South Park, which is frankly so sad it’s laughable. #FAIL
Would you let kids get away with calling things “black” instead of gay, and people they disliked “n**ger” instead of “f**got”? Actually, you probably would, but to me that is unacceptable.
Meanwhile, the fact some gay groups have chosen to reclaim “fag” in the same way so many black people have “n**ger” does not make it acceptable for the general public to use what has long been use as a term of abuse. Apparently you don’t understand the concept of reclaiming words. Google it or something.
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We at the ACL actually welcome the attention that Stephanie gets for her rather poor attempt at homophobia (one could almost be excused for thinking she didn’t even mean it).
It helps ensure that our efforts to further a truly fundamentalist homophobic agenda goes ahead largely unnoticed.
http://the-acl.info/post/viole.....ate-chaos/
But don’t worry, we are working quietly in the background to ensure that there are freedoms for all that share our world view. If that excludes a few poofters and Green’s supporters, then so be it.
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@70 Phil – yep totally agree mate! Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some people should just think twice about sharing their opinion with those of us who know better. But their lies the dilemma – had Matt not expressed his opinion he would not have received all the excellent refutations provided to him by people of all ages and sexual orientations. I sincerely hope that he reads all of the above and takes on board what many have expressed and seriously reconsiders couching things in terms of sexuality and age.
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Stephanie is uber cool and soooo unoffensive. Max has got it spot on. All you other faggots can go stick your head up a dead bear’s bum
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Oh come on, there is no other interpretation of the word ‘faggot’. It’s harsh and offensive and whether she meant it that way or not, anyone with half a brain would have read it that way, no matter what their age.
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Matt – I’m also a gay guy like you – borderline Gen X/Y so a bit younger – and I find it completely inappropriate for anyone with half a brain who is also a public figure to use that word in 2010.
This news just came out of the USA today — read on:
http://www.amplifyyourvoice.or.....BTQ-people
….As long as people like this exist in the world, we need to do what we can to lift gay people up and reduce divisive words that have a lot of baggage to them. Defending her is WRONG and does not advance our cause.
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So it’s offensive to some people, and not to others.
Do we not say it and keep 50% happy, or do we say it and keep ourselves happy?
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@75 Differentiator, I suggest you have a read of what Bob (@74) is saying.
Why all the fuss about someone saying something that was plainly offensive to some, when there are others attempting to quietly pursue a blatantly homophobic world view on the rest of us.
Sure, tell Stephanie she said a silly thing, but don’t read into it that she deliberately set out to denigrate and marginalise gay people. There’s enough people out there with this as their ACTUAL purpose to waste time on someone who made a mistake that they are going to have a very hard time living down.
Learn to tell the difference between language which potentially offends and language which actually offends or vilifies. I think most people are upset because others *might* have been offended. There’s a lot of nice polite people out there who are saying some pretty offensive things and working toward some very offensive goals that are being totally ignored because they didn’t say “faggot”.
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Ah…good to see the controversial Mat Baxter is back to stir things up! It’s been too quiet for too long..
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A fagot is a bundle of sticks.
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Misinterpreted by a Gen X media perhaps.
But Stephanie has Gen X advisers, who should have had the training in place for her to (a) not put herself in a situation where she’s tweeting at 3am, and (b) when she does find herself in that situation, not to say something as bone-dumb as what she did.
Steph’s 21, and God knows some of us did and said a lot of very stupid things when we were 21 (some of it in print…). But she’s certainly had more exposure to the media than most in the past three years, so there’s no excuse for her not to know that this (or something like it) would have caused problems.
Now if she was a 29-year-old AFL player with a history of bad behaviour – well, that’s another story…
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This thread is absurd, and Matt, to be honest I don’t think that using your sexuality as a form of authority in the matter is altogether reasonable.
Queer theorists and cultural commentators have long distiguished two forms of homophobia: active, and passive. Active is your run-of-the-mill, intentionally derogatory language, or in the worst cases, assault or violence against people of the GLBTI community.
Passive homophobia is represented as comments or actions that infer derogatory or inferiority to the GLBTI community, irrespective of their intent. When stephanie rice chose to publicly use a term for a gay man to ridicule a group of professional sportsmen and emasculate them, it was passively homophobic by definition. Clearly she is linking their lack of sporting prowess and failure with homosexuality.
The sad part is that as you mentioned, she probably didn’t intend to do it – but if she’s so stupid that, as a professional sportsperson with million dollar contracts and media training, she didn’t realise that calling people faggots publicly isn’t going to wash well, i think she deserves to be made an example of.
Is it any wonder that out of the thousands of professional football players that have played in the AFL and NRL over the last few decades, only one of them has had the balls to come out? So Matt, please don’t criticise Ian Roberts for being over sensitive: here in media, marketing and advertising we may be gay friendly, but in his formative world of professional sport, as frighteningly articulated my Stephanie, homophobia is still rife.
Oh, and by the way, i’m a gay guy – if that adds any weight to my arguement.
cheers
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It is not alright to use the word of a minority as a derogatory descriptive word. Full stop. Just because the youth of today speak that way does not make it right.
“Eany Meeny Miny Moe catch a “N word” by the toe” was a common ryhme when I was a primary schoool, yes I am Gen X, just because we all said it as kids has never made that term right to use, same for any minorty title used as a derogatory comment for anything.
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@79 Steve. Yep do agree with you. Did read Bob’s post – like the work at the ACL. And yes I do feel sorry for Stephanie to some degree. But we are not discussing the threats posed by Fundies on this blog. I see it as a separate issue. What we are really discussing is how different people interpret the meaning of certain terms, to wit *faggot* and *gay*. I think others have really expressed the flaw in Matts’s argument better than I can above. My argument is with Matt. I totally disagree with his opinion and believe that it is patently wrong. I also do not like people categorising them self as Gen Y or Gen x, gay or straight. Yes it does help provide some context to your point of view etcetera – but for me it is unnecessary and in this context divisive when we are talking about the views and behaviour of different generations – but maybe that is just because I am starting to feel old…
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I think Stephanie Rice is a good swimmer
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I really can’t believe some of the crap that people have posted here! Wake up people!! The term faggots, poofters etc are common terms that are used in day to day life – Deal with it.
I am not homophobic or a gay hater (even my gay friends use those exact words!), but the reality is that it’s common language today (and I am well over 30) and should not always be associated with the original meaning.
Times have changed people, time to catch up for all those that find the comments offensive… By the way – I could think of no better way of summing up our victory over the springboks as Stephanie did!
Just a shame that we have people that get their panties in a knot about such harmless and comical comments…
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Well said Matt and i agree. In typical Australian media style, they were real quick to jump on Stephanie and bring her down. Sure, wrong choice of word but the rest is political correctness blown out of proportion by people that live in a bubble of the past. Perspective is a good thing in this case.
I noted one “senior” radio personality called her “stupid” – this is directly more offensive than her original generic comment.
My opinion anyway.
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Are you for real? How on earth can you give reference to Southpark, it has no relevance whatsoever! Surely she knows what the word means and even if she wasn’t directing it to the gay community it was still offensive and aggressive.
I honestly can’t believe she thought that a comment like that would be left unnoticed
It just shows how immature she really is. She needs to grow up
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New business idea.
The “tweet-approver”.
Overpaid, oversponsored, yet developmentally immature celebrities can sign up for a weekly fee (say, $50 (cheap considering what’s at stake) – to have their tweets checked and released within 5 mins by someone with half a f**king brain.
Any of you fags want it?
What?
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@WTF? #83 – THANKYOU. You summed it up perfectly. The end.
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We used to get given faggots for supper at my boarding school. They are lumpy and impossible to suck up. Or have I missed the point?
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I really wish people would look up the word homophobia.
Also @ WTF – I don’t understand this practice of calling it the “GLTBI” community.
How many labels do you need?
i’m a gay guy, but more importantly…
I’m a human being like everyone else
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Had Stephanie used any other slur — like nigger, coon, towel-head, kyke, slaphead, spic, wog — then everyone would have been outraged.
Why then do is there debate when the slur used is ‘faggot’?
Sorry Max, but you’re wrong.
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Shameful.
And I love Phil’s comment implying that if you’re expressing “an opinion” then you’re immune to criticism. Genius.
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Hey Will-9 Sep 10-3:50 pm
Couple of pointers for you.
You hash-tagged the word fail in a comment on a website. This isn’t Twitter buddy… secondly I think you mixed black and gay up with n*gger and f*ggot.
Try #proofreading your comment before #posting.
On to the main topic at hand, as a single, white, Gen Y male who’s grown up all over the world (why does any of this really matter when we’re all expressing our own opinions, not trying to prove how we’re more learned or studied in the use of the word f*ggot), I still cringe inside at the word f*ggot.
At the same time I still see validity in Matt’s post. The generational gap between X & Y is shown everyday through slang, technology, they way we all think, work and do, blah blah.
While Matt didn’t condone it, and I don’t think ANYONE condones it, I think the point he seemed to be making was that there was a huge deal made about something that was unfortunately, a slip-up.
Suck on that butt head. Suck on that fart brain. Suck on that f*ggot. Clearly the last is the worst, but at the same time you’re drawing to conclusions that Stephanie was blatantly being homophobic and referencing the fact that homosexuals suck dick.
Do you honestly think someone of her stature, in the spotlight, who seems to have never made a homophobic statement before, would go and post on her Twitter profile something like that?
Seriously everyone. As depricating and vile as it is, the media has helped create a storm in a tea cup, and as Matt has rightly pointed out, a Gen X-run media hasn’t helped by jumping on a ‘newsworthy’ incident and blasting it loudly and proudly.
Don’t even try and tell me none of our media moguls have uttered a homophobic term, or told a racist joke… They just haven’t done it on Twitter.
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sigh, this really is basic discrimination and privilege.
minorities have a history of reclaiming slurs. black people and “nigger”, for example.
Those slurs are used in a POSITIVE light. e.g. “I am so glad I am a dyke because I love women” or the numerous bloggers and activists with a disability reclaiming “crip” or “gimp.”
No one (including those from the minority in question) should use these words in a NEGATIVE light. If you are not from a particular minority, NEVER USE THOSE WORDS.
So simple. So very simple.
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We’re fast becoming a nanny state
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Oh Steph,if only you’d have been using a blackberry. Then you could have let everyone know your finger slipped off the M key.
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stuff that. too many comments on this article. how am I supposed to make a witty comment and expect receive any recognition of said wit?
faggots.
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This is the same thing about the term “wog”, when my parents were at school in the 60’s and 70’s they used to be called a “wog” in a derogatory way which was quite hurtful becuase it implied the anglos were a superior race. Today, even though it isn’t politically correct, people of all nationalities now use the term just to mean a person of Mediterranean background, much like you would call someone from China an asian and someone from the middle east an Arab. The word “faggot” today said under certain contexts has nothing to do with Homosexuals, just like “wog” said a certain way is not considered offensive in every day spoken “Australian” English.
Kids today use the word “gay” and “faggot” to tease eachother, funnily enough so do plenty of my Gay and Lesbian friends…. they mean it in the same context as these school kids do and they mean it in the same way Rice used the word.
I would only get offended if someone called me a “F*#king faggot” in a way that made fun of my sexuality in a negative superior way.
Just as i’d get offended if someone called me a “F*#king Wog” in a way that made fun of my heritage in a negative superior way.
Just like the movie “Wog Boy”, I wouldn’t be surprised if the movie “Faggot” comes out in the next couple of decades once the word matures as our language slowly evolves.
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I’m going to ignore the whole debate and be a bitch in pointing out that the South Park episode actually used the word ‘fag’ not ‘gay’.
The argument that came up in the episode was that ‘faggot’ once meant a bunch of sticks and developed over time. They point out that maybe it’s time people realised it has developed again into a generic derogatory term not one directed at a specific group of people.
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Another opportunity to expose Twitter and twits. One day someone will wake up to the fact it’s a channel for dillpot commentary. It’s the dumbness about twitter that keeps it going. It’s like a morphed classified ad and continues to prove itself as the quickest way to brand damage – for people and products. I suspect any prestige sponsor would think twice about endorsement by any tweeting ‘talent’.
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Having only just read this, I thought Mat must really be an idiot. And worse, that people would agree with his opinion.
I’m glad that’s not true.
BUT his opinion may explain why me (gay) and a friend (straight) were bashed one night in Sydney city by AT LEAST seven guys aged about 18 – 21 yelling ‘faggots’, ‘you get what you deserve faggots’, and ‘f*&cken faggots’. Even better, three of their girlfriends watched on.
I’m so glad that this term is part of your generation, Mat. Makes me feel like the beating I got actually meant something. Although it still hasn’t paid for my friend’s lost teeth.
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@Gellerpy
You and you mate got bashed because they were probably homophobes, they didn’t bash you because of the word “faggot”. That is the point, it is all about context, the word has a double meaning, but as time goes on it is becomming a general derogatory term instead of a homosexual derogatory term.
You call yourself gay right? But you mean gay meaning homosexual??? Because if you want to get picky about the meaning of words, lets scrap the term “gay” to mean homosexuals and use the term to mean “happy” once again, after all that’s what it really means.
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I’m more offended that Rice didn’t use a comma between “that” and “faggots”.
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@107 Tom – “the word has a double meaning” what double meaning are you talking about!?!?!?
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no sympathy at all!!!! She has had publicity training and is a public figure – she knows a lot better.
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I think using South Park as a moral compass is a wonderful starting point for any discussion on discrimination. “They’re so brave, aren’t they, saying what we all wish we could get away with?”
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@85 Diff (can I call you Diff?), I just looked at Ian Robert’s comments. They didn’t read to me as if he was personally offended. Who is personally offended? I’m not saying there’s nobody, but there are far more people who are critical because others might have been offended than have actually been offended.
Sure, I think she wanted to say the losing team were inferior, and she picked a word that is a less than polite reference to male homosexuals. If anyone should be upset it is the team, or their supporters — because they were her intended targets
Quite frankly, I think I would struggle to avoid hearing a constant tirade of remarks that would be offensive to someone should I take careful note of what people say about opposing teams (or even referees) at sporting fixtures. It is quite rare to hear a refined British accent exclaiming “Good show there fellow!” when an opponent scores.
Are we still allowed to call them bastards, or girls, or even wankers? I wonder this because I’m not sure if it’s better to suggest a team has uncertain parentage, are feminine (even if they’re a women’s team), or prone to masturbation than it is to suggest they are homosexual, belong to a particular religion or ethnic group.
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@ differentiator:
As I already said it was predominately a derogatory term against homosexuals, and now it is shifting to a general derogatory term that has nothing to do with homosexuals.
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@ Tom (113) – “now it is shifting to a general derogatory term that has nothing to do with homosexuals” – sorry but that comment is patently wrong, and I wish I had the patience to explain to you why that is so.
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Whether she meant it to offend or not I think what’s disturbing about the whole thing is how un-lady like she has come across. At the end of the day, she’s a role model for young women whether she set out to be or not. She has a responsibility to behave in way that is becoming of the young accomplished woman she is. (in public and/or public forums at least).
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I’m amazed that this is a story – @ItsStephRice had around 6,000 followers at the time of “the tweet”, which was twittered around 3am in the morning. It must have been a keen eyed journo with a bit of an axe to grind and slow news day for it to get picked up – maybe a persistent search on the word “faggot” ? Interestingly, her twitter following has rocketed in the days following, according to TwitterCounter, and she’s adding about 400 people a day, up to over 9,000 now. People waiting to see if it happens again, or a following of people who are generally interested in what she has to say ?
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@ 112 Steve (can I call you Stevie?). Sorry but you have lost me a bit with your line questioning etcetera. But hey yeah, whatever you say. Diff
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@diff
So Rice was refering to a Homosexual man in her tweet was she?
School kids in year 5 and 6 are using the term because they are already 100% well aware of their sexuality at such a young age and are refering to their peers as being homosexuals are they?
Mate get over your self you are wrong to say that the word “faggot” is always intended to piss of homosexuals.
Do explain what these people are refering to when they use the word in such a way? You can not just say “your wrong” and not explain yourself.
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Let’s get this straight…
When I say “straight”, I mean heterosexual, not “un-bent”
When I say “bent”, I mean folded or deformed, not under the influence of drugs or “gay”
and when I say “gay”, I mean “faggot”, not lame or happy.
but when I say lame, I mean stupid or un-original, not a piece of woven metal or the inability to walk.
And by faggot, I mean a queer, not a roll of sticks or a person with a menial task.
And by queer I mean fairy or a fruit, not something unusual.
And by fairy, I mean a person who is not straight,
So, having gotten that straight, I think it’s pretty obvious what Stephanie meant. There are no two ways about it.
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Can you call a black person the “N” word?
Or an Asian person or Aboriginal with equally racial remarks??
Of course not!!
If gays refer to themselves as “fags” in a self-depreciating way, that is OK, but it’s not OK for the heterosexual community to do so. The same goes for words like “wog”… it’s not for me to call someone a wog, but they can call themselves a “wog”, as in the movie “Wog Boy”, or “Wogarama”, etc.
It’s also not ok to say “That’s gay” to refer to something negative because it reinforces the idea that being gay is a negative thing. And it doesn’t matter if that’s by a bunch of teenagers at school or an adult. It needs to be squashed and eradicated from our language. And it’s not being overly PC… the consequences have a very real and profound effect, both individually and sociologically, on developing gay children and adolescents.
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@116 Diffy maaaate! It’s simple. Tell me, just who was actually offended?
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@ diff
If “faggot” is going to be the only word in English history to not evolve in it’s meaning (which it is obvious it already has), then hey there could be others…… oh wait there isn’t any other words that have not evolved in their meaning in some way.
Good thing the word faggot means a bundle of sticks or rods and it has no relation to homosexuals at all because you imply that the meaning of words can not evolve over time.
Ultimate fail mate….
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@ steve,
Don’t worry, diff is talking out of a smelly orafice who can not see things from other peoples perspective, nor can he even sit back and independently evaluate the situation.
He’s like a horse with his blinkers on, can’t look at things other than what he is told to look at.
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@119 Mack — it’s such an emotionally charged word.
A couple of G’s, an N, an I and E and an R.
Do I dare use the word? — OK, I dare!
Is it OK to cal a ginger “ginger”, or do you have to be a ginge, or at least have a tinge of ginge in your minge to do so?
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@ redhead
Southpark also did an episode about rangas aswell….
(oops I forgot red heads find that offensive aswell)
Looks like every word you say, some one looking for 5 mintues of fame or trying to justify their job will complain and hope it catches on
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@124 Tom, just call me “Fantapants” darling.
p.s. trying to get a ban placed on the sale of Fanta and Coon cheese.
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“The drama with Stephanie Rice this week is a perfect example of how the meaning and “sting” of words evolve and erode over time as they move through the generations. Sure, she used the word “faggots” in a nasty way in her tweet using it to insult the Springboks but did she really mean to bring all the historical and negative baggage associated with the word along for the ride?”
Matt, I’m not offended myself, but the reason Faggot is still considered a massive insult when directed at straight guys is because it’s clearly used with the assumption that being a fag is a bad thing and attaches that like sticky shit directly to the person they’re trying to insult.
I’m not going to demonise Steph, given the context I couldn’t give a shit and probably would have been yelling the same thing at the TV, but don’t fall into a false sense of security that “sting” of the word has eroded and is misunderstood by GenYer’s. It remains a clear insult because it brings all of it’s negatives connotations with it. Until you hear someone say ‘he’s a good faggot’ instead of saying ‘he’s a good bloke’ it will always have a negative association to it and I can see why this has really pissed people off.
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Wake up and smell the coffee Mat!
Your argument is so flawed in so many ways… your hypothesis that the word can be interpreted differently because of an age or cultural/social divide is certainly worth of exploration. But please note, she did not use any other word to demean the target of her attack, she chose a very specific one – there are many other derogatory words she could have used, but she chose not to. No matter what their age… many people (like Rice) know that other derogatory words are not acceptable publicly and do not use them. She certainly did not use any other word on purpose – she’s smart enough to know the public – and sponsors – would not accept other (demeaning) words coming out of her mouth. But this word she thought she could still get away with… because some people still think it’s somehow acceptable.
Given the context of her tirade, it seems to me she chose the strongest word in her vocabulary that would be demeaning, and that she thought she could get away with in public.
Would you still be supporting her, given your argument, if she had used other demeaning words used against people of various races, cultures, religions, sex/gender, physical and/or mental ability? I do sincerely doubt it. No matter what your age, you would know those words are not socially acceptable.
For example, if she had called a team from Africa the “n” word? Would you still use your argument there? I so don’t think so!
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@136 Mark C, my dance teacher is a good faggot.
When my wife and I are learning tango, you have to be pretty comfortable with having another guy’s body in contact with you from groin to chest. And heaven forbid, sometimes he makes me dance the female part to give me a better understanding of how I should lead.
What really pisses me off is that if we had a female dance teacher, my wife could dance with her for medals, but I can’t dance with him for my medals!
50% of the judges are gay, I’m not offended — why can’t I dance with another bloke? We dance very well together — and technically speaking, there are no long flowing dresses to obscure any technical errors I might make with my footwork.
I’m straight and an organisation with more gay members than you can poke a stick at is preventing me from dancing with another bloke.
Is there an offensive word for straight that I can level at them? Can I call them “un-faggotty”?
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I really want to know what she wants the faggots to suck on
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Baxter has done it again.
The whole industry is talking about him.
(Ever felt you’ve been played?)
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Anyway, why are we allowing teenage boys to shape our language?
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Because ultimately those “teenage boys” are the ones that shape society when all the old farts die off….
The good old baby boomers are the people who have made society the way it is today, just like in 30 years time the “teenage boys” will have to bear the brunt of the blame for their generations failings as parents.
It will happen for ever
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I was planning to write a “well informed” response and argue for either side of this discussion… But then I just went on living my life.
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Dear Stephanie Rice,
So you can understand the idiocy of your actions, may I just say…..
“ah, DAH!”
Yours Sincerley,
A Gen Y-er with common sense
PS. I just hope that in her next public appearance she isn’t going to try and flog a Witchery Man Blazer
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Teenage boys don’t get to shape society until they are middle aged. And I am sure they won’t be speaking liek teenage boys when they are 40.
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Did ANYONE know she was sponsored by Jaguar until now?
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Does her use of the word “faggots” make her homophobic?
No.
Is her use of the word “faggots” as a means to indicate inferiority disrespectful to faggots?
Yes.
Is the use of the word “gay” to mean lame or stupid disrespectful to gays?
Yes.
It all comes down to context really regardless of the word and associated demographic.
For example:
Stephanie: “I’m going out with a group of my faggot friends tonight.”
Ian: “Well you bitches have fun.”
Stephanie: “Hey, don’t call me bitch, fag!”
Ian: “Sorry, didn’t mean to offend. We cool nigga?”
Stephanie: “Shit yeah nigga!”
Assuming Stephanie and Ian are friends, none of the above discussion is offensive or disrespectful. However…
Stephanie: “I’m going out with a bunch of dumb-ass faggots tonight.”
Ian: “Shut the fuck up bitch, that’s offensive.”
Stephanie: “Well don’t call me bitch then ya poofta.”
Ian: “Bite me ya cracka slut. Damn trailer-trash ho.”
Stephanie: “That the best you can do? You’re weaker than those useless South African niggers.”
All of the above is disrespectful to homosexuals, women, blacks and Caucasians. Naturally, if this conversation took place in private no-one would give a rats. However were it to occur in a public space then there’d be a page very similar to this with 10 times the amount of comments….
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@ Tom – if the day ever comes that the term “faggot” is used in a derogatory sense without having anything to do with homosexuality – it definitely will not be in our lifetimes. If people use the word in a derogatory sense to offend others (and that is anybody irrespective of sexuality etc) then you are perpetuating the connotation that being a homosexual is deviant, “lame” unnatural, subhuman etc. Others have posted this argument more eloquently than me above – I suggest you to read all of the posts to enlighten yourself.
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@ Tony Richardson. No. Isn’t that hilarious. My boss drives a Jag and he fits the stereotype much better than her. A brand in decline I feel, trying to reposition itself?
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Mat,
Have you really let your over inflated ego balloon to a size where you now think you can speak for the rest of the gay population.
Guess it brings a new meaning to ‘Queen’.
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this debate is gay….
She apologised, has been dropped by Jaguar and no doubt is generally sorry to loose her sponsorship. Let move on, these slurs happen all the time in society – hold a mirror up to yourselves before you criticise others…
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You lost me at ‘on a recent South Park episode.’
This is utter rubbish and I find it remarkable that this vacuous swill got past first edit.
Shame!
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Surprised that no one’s mentioned Jay Smooth’s “A guide to No Homo” by now, but here you go…
http://www.illdoctrine.com/200....._homo.html
“Generally speaking, if you’re not the original target of an insult, you can’t be the one to reclaim it”.
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People use a derogatory term about my race all the time.
They call me a Pom.
But that’s okay apparently.
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@144. Oh, you poor oppressed minority you.
(Twat.)
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Sorry, I meant “Pommy twat”.
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Nice one Mat.
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@will.i.am or “Matt” I take you point about proof reading before posting, but the rest of is seemed to be rubbish.
#SorryYou’reSoOld
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@BR Ian – hahahaha
@Media Brit How many of these people are actually the same race as you? Probably most of them?
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OMG – Baxter is a fag??
My iPhone wanted to auto-correct ‘fag’ to ‘dag’ – I nearly let it…
Matt, your argument is so wrong it’s not funny – but what I really can’t believe is your complete lack of business acumen (for someone with CEO as a job title). Your new agency has probably the most conservative & traditional client list of any agency in our industry – and this is how you decide to introduce yourself to them? It shows you have no idea of life outside of your flashy little world – which doesn’t bode well in the communications industry.
Poor Henry must be in damage control.
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Knob Jock,
Usually your first point would be deleted under our comment moderation policy, but is just about in context on this occasion, even if the intention appears to deliberately be to offend.
On your second point, you really think that stating a point of view on an issue being widely discussed by the public – and a point of view calling for understanding at that – will scare off conservative clients?
Don Draper called. He needs you back in 1959.
Cheers,
Tim – Mumbrella
Well if everyone put this much energy into advocating same sex marriage I think that would be fantastic. Use your energy to make a difference.. not blow hot air.
I am a Gen Y and feel constantly put down when my generation is referred to in the media. I fully understand how the gay community feel if they are offended, I have at times slipped out the word `gay’ when referring to `lame’ and bit my tounge afterwards embarassed.. it is something I have picked up from my childhood. I think Stephanie has done the right thing by apologising, and the younger generation will hopefully learn now (with the guidance from their older generation parents) that it is not socially acceptable to use such words.
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Now… Who’s going to explain all this to the thousands of other people on Twitter who use the word frequently? Go see for yourself…
http://search.twitter.com/search?q=faggot
Fact: Words mean different things to different people. The term Wog is used freely here in Australia, yet is abhorrent in the UK. The term Gingernut is offensive to people with red hair – where does it end? Retard, Spastic… the list of Aussie colloquialisms that offend many is as long as this list of mumbrella comments.
The point is, it’s the thought and true inference behind the word that counts, not the word itself. Without context a word has no real meaning. Bottom line… Ms Rice got a raw deal.
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Very true.
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Actually she said nothing wrong. Those do gooders should get a life.
re; Stephanie Rice’s Remarks after Wallabies Victory over South Africa
SUCK ON THAT, FAGGOT = A Retort toward a stupid, clumsy, or dull person or persons. Perfectly described by Stephanie about the SA Rugby Team getting beaten. This is a valid definition of her use of slang. Nothing wrong with it at all. Its akin to saying, something like “take that you fools !” with more colourful language and the exuberance of a Grand Champion.
PROOF BELOW !
FAGGOT
A faggot is a kind of meatball. Faggots are a traditional dish in the UK,[1][2] especially the Midlands of England.[3][4][5] It is made from meat off-cuts and offal, especially pork.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food)
MEATBALL
2. Slang A stupid, clumsy, or dull person.
2. US and Canadian slang a stupid or boring person
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/meatball
SUCK ON THAT
http://onlineslangdictionary.c.....ck+on+that
a retort.
Hence my finding that;
SUCK ON THAT, FAGGOT = A Retort toward a stupid, clumsy, or dull person or persons. Perfectly described by Stephanie about the SA Rugby Team getting beaten. This is a valid definition of her use of slang. Nothing wrong with it at all. Its akin to saying, something like “take that you fools !” with more colourful language and the exuberance of a Grand Champion.
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@ Tom (146 + 147):
Pommy?
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Im gay and was soooooooooooo NOT offended – way too busy – gotta run
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Well done Matt – got the crowd talking again! One of the best and most inspirational song writers and performers, Rufus Wainwright (who also happens to be homosexual!) wrote a song for the very gay friendly Shirley Bassey called “Apartment”. It features the line “I don’t want to kiss that faggot froggy…”, what were they thinking!!!
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I think she meant “suck on that you a ball of chopped meat, bound with herbs and sometime served with tomato sauce”
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who EVEN gets offended these days??!
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Stephanie Rice’s post doesn’t make me think she is a homophobe. it makes me think she has no common sense. i am a gay man. the only thing that offended me about this experience was her excuse that she is “outgoing”. lame
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Sounds like Mat Baxter has a case of generational Stockholm Syndrome and needs to wake up.
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I’m a Gen Y and I think that word is deplorable. To think it is no longer offensive is to be the one who is out of touch.
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I think Groucho summed it up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq4eeyVr_Hs
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the phrase was offensive, full stop.
being a public figure she should have put a little more thought into what she wrote.shouting this out to a close circle of friends is one thing, but writing it in a public forum is another. I’m not sure she deserved to lose her sponsorships over this as she is clearly an outstanding swimmer, but give it time, some more Commonwealth/Olympic Golds and no more tweets like this one and she should get back to where she was before, and I wish her the best of luck.
Matt appears to be being controversial to generate some PR for himself, in line with his new (revenue chasing) position of CEO.
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Agree with most sentiments expressed here. The point is not whether you think the word is offensive or intended it to be offensive. The point is there is no way you could not know that very many other people find it offensive. So don’t use it.
Having said that, no-one died, she’s apologised, let’s move on.
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@ Twinkletoes – haha – the word you’re looking for is ‘breeder’
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@Geo .92: my thoughts exactly. Nice little earner on the side for publicists or talent managers.
I wonder what Eamon Sullivan is thinking about this. My guess is “Phew!”
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Gee Mat
This way of thinking is astounding?
You are an intellectual lightweight and the loss of respect here for your person is astounding – and compounding.
Using Southpark to make a point…you will be quoting Oscar the Grouch next!
Muppet.
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Poor steph seems as dumb as a plank, and I don’t think she meant any harm, but you can’t exactly expect there to not be a fall out from this.
For all those people who are telling everyone to stop making a mountain out of a molehill, I’m pretty sure you would still pause and feel a bit confronted if someone said to you “well you seem like a faggot”.
Don’t think it’s something anyone is really ready to embrace – if the gay community want to reclaim it, let them, but don’t make it into a gen y, gen x, baby boomer issue. It’s still a pretty hate-filled word, connected to hate-crimes and homophobia. End of story.
i’m gen y by the way, sick of people making out that we have no sense of community norms or decency – I join Will as he says “you probably won’t take this in the way I’ve intended, but get f*cked”.
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@wanka banka – I am offended on behalf of all Sesame Street characters, they are artists and it’s not right to use the ‘term’ muppet to describe things you think are gay.
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@WiseOldMan – brilliance. Steph Rice should hire you for her PR team immediately.
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Personally I think the fault lies with Jaguar. Just because Stephanie can swim very fast doesn’t mean that she can act or market luxury cars or use social networks in a commercial and savvy manner. She’s a kid and kids are notoriously stupid about posting their true selves on social networks.
My feeling: sack the sponsorship/marketing director at Jaguar for being dumb enough to think Stephanie is an ambassador for the Jaguar brand and let Stephanie continue to post boring, offensive, age appropriate tweets at leisure!
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you have to be kidding right …. is this a so called communications expert talkinG? or did i not eat my heterosexual ironman cereal this morning? the word was used in a derogatory sense, an insult, … that is the Springboks weren’t real men, they were losers … therefore they are faggots … that is homosexuals – who by linguistic association are weak, effeminate, societal losers … what didn’t the guy hear in that short spiteful piece of communication? … using some lame generational excuse is extraordinary … intellectual grunt work equalling a big fat swinging zero …
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Fact is, “gay” and “faggots” as terms of derision exist as terms of derision because they were intially used “in the playground” to refer to being homosexual or homosexuality. That was back when (incidentally, I think this is still the case) people using the terms felt that they were insulting their target by calling them homosexual.
I know people who refer to something they think is lame as being “homosexual”. If they tweeted “Suck on that you homosexuals” would it be perceived any differently by the Gen-X’ers (of which I am one) who use the word “gay” to refer to things they think are lame?
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Following up, what needs to change is any individual’s (not everyone in Gen X thinks they’re acceptable terms) thinking that using “gay”, “faggot”, “homo” or any other term referring to sexuality is an acceptable insult.
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OMG!!! I have never seen a thread like this one! And after all is sad and done, I understand totally what Mat Baxter is saying – Stephanie Rice was NOT trying to insult homosexuals. And I don’t understand why so many straights care either way. As a great big generation X leso myself, I use that word all the time and I am yet to analyse exactly why – I just do! Get over it people!
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oh dear, so many sucked in by so few.
Sad.
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Mr Baxter is talking through his arse
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Matt is a fool and obviously trying to use his skill(?) in categorising and analysing people and it is backfiring very badly. And this man has a job as what again? Just because its a well used word does not make it right. Simple really. Like him.
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Matt, you’re a “tool”
It’s a general work people use to express an individual’s “lameness” – it’s how we mainstream Gen Yr’s like to refer to people like you.
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It’s sad when homophobic comment becomes such a part of a generation’s vernacular that even those people being vilified have no idea that they’re being denigrated. I feel sorry for Mat Baxter. I’m also amazed that, as someone who works in communications, he seems to have so little idea about the power and meaning of words.
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ALL I CAN SAY IS DON’T BUY ANY JAGUARS!!!!!
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I just feel sorry for all the little bundles of sticks that the term faggot originally meant. No-one seems to be apologising to them for being insensitive.
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@Dissapointed, spot on.
Mat, we were considering throwing some work your way, but this post…shit if you can get this wrong WTF are you going to get wrong with my brand?
And they made you CEO….
No one has the right to dictate what someone else can or cannot find offensive. You talk about it being an inter generational issue of perspective, I call it a lack of common sense, self respect and manners. And why is the lack of that in others a reason to forgive it?
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I’m curious what brand you think you work on, Anon_Coward?
Your IP address suggests to me that it’s not something that would need a media agency as a client.
But let’s just say for a moment that I’m mistaken… how was it that you were “thinking of throwing some work” Mat’s way? Can you explain the decision-making process?
Was it a conversation in your office where you said: “I like the cut of the Mat Baxter’s jib. I know he hasn’t even started his new job yet, but when he does, sod holding a pitch, I like what he says in the trade press, I’m going to throw him some work.”
And then, to your horror, this week “Now that he’s expressed an opinion with which I disagree, I’m just going to just as arbitrarily decide not to give him my (imaginary) business.”
Is that how the conversation went?
I thought not.
Cheers,
Tim – Mumbrella
I’ve avoided posting on this topic now for 24 hours but it’s clearly still rocking. Which i think was possibly Mats wish….i say to you sir: REAL THINGS DON’T NEED PR.
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My mother has always said…..”if you have nothing nice to say, then best not to say anything at al!”…….
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To quote: “Does anyone really think that Stephanie Rices’ use of the word “faggots” on Twitter was in any way genuinely intended to be derogatory or offensive to homosexuals?”
Casual homophobic slurs are perhaps all the more disturbing. The use was clearly as an insult.
I found it offensive.
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Hey everyone! Look over there!
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@ (187) Mumbrella.
Tim, do you ‘cherry pick’ the dubious posts that you respond to?
Changing tack now: this discussion has most definitely highlighted that there are a great deal of people who have absolutely no idea. Matt Baxter is not one of those however. As some have pointed out – the objective behind Matt’s opinion piece was most probably designed to generate divisive discussion (edited under Mumbrella’s comment moderation policy)
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@The Differentiator
You, my friend, are a massive tool.
Take a long hard look at yourself. Done? Now look again. Done? Now look again. Got the picture?
Tosser.
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Have to agree with Mat here.. anyone getting upset at this is seriously overreacting… Remember that ‘faggot’ had a completely different meaning well before it was used as a derogatory term for gays.
The english language evolves – Just like the term ‘Queer’ or ‘nigga’ it has multiple meanings depending on who it’s coming from…
It’s time that all the tossers that get too easily upset go & sit in their corners & think about what damage they have caused to both her personal & public life & career.
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(edited under Mumbrella’s comment moderation policy). an insult is an insult.
mumbrella – chose your commentators (used loosely in this case) wisely in future.
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Finally, matt, as a smart, ok looking savvy media guy who happens to be gay: go on a date with me and gimme a couple of hours to talk you round.
I dare you.
And I’m serious.
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As the Daily Telegraph says, it’s just a word…
http://www.dailytelegraph.com......5916699852
get over it people.
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@Differentiator
Take a long hard look at yourself. Done? Now take another long hard look at yourself. Done?
You are a twat.
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Anyway, it matters zilch whether she likes gays or not. She’s entitled to use that slang as she chooses. The fact others might not like it, is simply something she has to come to terms with. I mean though really for a $100K JAG, I think almost anyone would say they like gays.
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Hey Matt, we’ve been discussing such “sporting” comments for years, being an xgener, nothing new, perhaps steph needs a bit more media training..? Congrats on the new gig..!
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I think we’re all overlooking the real victims here.
It’s not LGBT people (or transgender people like me), it’s not Stephanie – it’s heterosexual middle class white people over 30.
Heterosexual middle class white people over 30 are the true victims in all of this.
So very many of these poor people have been bought up insulated from the lives of the rest of the world, inside a nice safe heterosexual middle class white bubble, surrounded by other similarly thinking heterosexual middle class white people.
They never get to understand how all their thinking is constrained by this.
So when one of their kind, a ‘celebrity’ says something stupid on Twitter, they respond as you’d imagine.
Some with outrage, some with confusion. Some with understanding and sympathy. ‘How could a heterosexual middle class white sports woman say this?” “How could a gay man like Mat Baxter defend this?”
It must be difficult for them. Trying to figure out what’s right and wrong. It’s hard when you don’t know what the problem really is.
That the problem is heterosexual middle class white people…
Poor Stephanie, she really believes she is not homophobic – ‘some of my best friends are gay’ you hear her say. Sound familiar?
And that’s the heart of the matter. Because of their heterosexual middle class baggage, they don’t recognize their attitudes are homophobic – they simply don’t believe it.
Most homophobic people don’t recognize their homophobia. Like most racists don’t recognize their racism. But it’s there and it’s real. The media is full of people, sports people, business people, Bob Katter, all with the same problem.
Denial.
And until we deal with the whole ‘denial thing’ heterosexual middle class white people over 30 are doomed to keep suffering.
If you’re a heterosexual middle class white person over 30, it’s you who should be getting an apology, from someone. Maybe the Prime Minister.
You can all meet on the lawn in front of Parliament house. There will be singing and traditional dancing.
There is one person who can help you. Me. Take me out to dinner on Saturday, my dinner date fell through and I’m available until 1am (Edward, if you’re reading this, damn you, how can you stand me up for your stupid sister’s dinner party on 24 hours notice? We need to talk about the ‘relationship’).
But I digress.
A dinner date, a few drinks and some intelligent conversation with a lovely transsexual companion will really open your eyes.
And I’ll let you call me ‘darling’.
X
Lavinia
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@197 truth Hurts
Hahahahaha
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Hey Mat, what are your thoughts on religion?
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I’m a 46 yo gay man.
“Faggot” is just a word and used in many a way and by many a people.
Stephanie did NOT direct it at a gay man she directed it at a hetro.
She is only 21 for god sake.
It is not her use of the word that brings hatred to the gay community it is the gay communities posts witnessed here and elsewhere that brings hatred.
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I think they’re trying to pull an Eddie McGuire here. Not the incident with Mick Molloy, bagging out some of the skaters for their gay outfits, Eddie McGuire when he blatantly said he wanted to ‘bone’ Jessica Rowe.
Myself and the rest of Australia had a very different version of what ‘boning’ someone meant, until Eddie redefined it as ‘sacking’ and sacked her.
So fairly soon, faggot will just mean someone who’s inferior at something, but not necessarily homosexual.
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Max, pls don’t be offended if I call you a pony-hair-tailed-advertising-wanker – yr probably just taking it out of context.
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This thread is awesome!
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I’m interested in learning more about the ‘taking’ back of offensive words by minorities. Pardon my ignorance, but what is meant to happen when (and if) discrimination against a group is ended?
Should the offensive words simply stop being used and vanish into a dusty old tome on the old English language? Or are they meant to be used indefinitely by that particular minority group, and that group only? Or would it be best if society as a whole adapted the word for a completely different use, which although having negative historical connotations means nothing of the sort in the modern era?
Obviously we’re all going to have a view on what the better option is, and I of course have my own too. But I’m not interested in sharing my opinion – I’d rather learn about what others think, particularly members of the gay community who are the targets of a lot of abuse.
I will say one thing about South Park though – love it or hate it, the writers aren’t complete idiots. I found the episode below made quite a profound point about how the majority (i.e. White, middle class, heterosexual, Gen Y, i.e. Me) can never truly understand why a minority group will be upset at certain words, actions or behaviours.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W.....se_Jackson
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I wonder how different this thread would be if Stephanie had called them p*ssies or said they played like a bunch of girls. Most of the points in this thread could still be relevant yet I doubt it would garner 200+ comments.
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@The Truth Hurts
obviously
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When I hang out in Darlinghurst I see posters up for a regular gay party called “gay bash” As Australians we can all laugh at ourselves but as a straight guy and the brother of a gay person I thought that was an insensitive name for a party.(Considering the bashings that have occurred in Sydney during the early Mardi-Gras days.) How would the pioneers of that movement that risked life and limb for gay people today feel?
Her swipe wasn’t intended for gay people. I think that’s the determining factor. I do however find the use of language offensive sounding, in that it’s said with such disdain. But then again she’s a sports person. This is what a sports person is like. It’s part of their make-up. What we’ve witnessed here is her competitive mindset. They’re always fired up. I’m sure when she’s on the blocks before a race she’s saying to herself I’m going to beat these faggots. Anyone knows that getting yourself into a fired up state, to get your adrenaline going there’s a fair amount of swearing involved. People need to be honest here. Do you think she’s really homophobic? Or hates gay people? No. Do I think she’s just another sports star jock dickhead that wasn’t thinking? Yes. Why do we keep expecting them to be something else? We should just be pleasantly suprised if they’re not.
Brands are happy to just jump on the back of immediate success without even knowing these people and what they stand for. I think Ian Robert is being way over sensitive here. I’m with Mat, get a grip people. See things for what they really are. Personally, I’m more offended by people that are too politically correct and expect people to be lilly white. They’re not. We’re not. We’re full of contradictions. Priests are Pedophiles, Politicians watch porn, and in advertising land we still want to show perfect families in our ads even though half the population is divorced. It’s 2010 and women in the middle east are being stoned to death for adultery after their husband has died. That’s something to get on your high horse about not some gay tweet from some gay sports star (Stephanie not Ian).
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Hey Tim, things have changed a lot over here since you left B&T. I know it hurts bud, but you’re way out of the loop on what we’re planning. Sorry.
The decision making process…you run Mumbrella, surely you’d have at least a small amount of industry experience to understand how that works?
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@ Anon_Coward
Nice rejoinder!
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There’s this notion about Australian’s having this ability to not take ourselves too seriously, hence our “sense of humour”. From my experience too many wasp Australian’s hide behind that excuse to allow them to be racist, homophobic jizz buckets.
The sequence usually goes –
“You dumb [insert insult]”, quickly followed by “just kidding mate!”. It’s like we’re convinced that uttering the line “just kidding mate” somehow makes what has been said not only bearable,but part of our national sense of humour and therefore devoid of any insult.
Which is a load of BS….
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Anon_Coward,
Interesting that you chose to identify where you came from.
I’ll wait with interest to see your $30m (or even $3m, or, hey, $300,000) media spend that would justify you hiring a media agency as you claimed before. And even more to see the pitch process you go through.
Cheers,
Tim – Mumbrella
Tim,
I am dying to know where Anon_Coward comes from…
can you share it with the rest of us???
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I think Anon_Coward has given you the clue, Alison…
Cheers,
Tim – Mumbrella
I guess he did… I just didn’t really believe that either.
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Matt Baxter, as an educated person you should have a better understanding of the construction of language and its power.
Just because certain communities reclaim words doesn’t make them less offensive when they are used by the wider population. You said: “In fact, one of the most popular events in Sydney’s gay scene is called “Fag Tag” which attracts a predominantly under 30s crowd. Clearly the name hasn’t proven too offensive to this age group because it has been running for more than six years.”
A reclaimed word is a word in a language that was at one time a pejorative but has been brought back into acceptable usage within the communities that experienced oppression under that word. ‘Dyke’, ‘faggot’, ‘poof’, ‘queer’, and ‘homo’ have been reclaimed by areas of the GLBTI movement. But it wuld be totally wrong for someone outside this movement to use it.
An example would be how ‘Nigga’ has been claimed by the black movement, as exampled through music but would inappropriate for a white person to use.
‘Gay’ is used in the pejorative by GenY because straight people form the dominant discourse. When working with young GLBTI people, the use of it hurts because it associates gay with bad.
A simplistic and underthought article.
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I would have thought that if Mat Baxter seriously believed the views he espoused then he would have posted a reply on this stream by now. The views espoused by many above (especially #219) do make a great counter argument to Mat’s.
I do take the point that the meaning of words do evolve over time. However, comparing the meaning of bundles of sticks and meatballs with a pejorative meaning for homosexuality does not fit that definition. They are distinct meanings regarding different objects – there is no evolution of meaning.
When somebody uses gay or faggot to describe something or someone in particular, they are drawing meaning from the association that homosexuality is lame or deviant etc. What I and others believe is that this ‘meaning making’ is not just an evolution of the word per se – but an indirect reaffirmation that homosexuality is lame or deviant.
And this has nothing to do with homophobia, age or generational divides and so forth. It’s just common sense.
++ Being gay is lame ——- I say that something is gay therefore it is lame ——- If something is lame and I call it gay to mean as such, ipso facto being gay is lame +++
Maybe Mat could post a response to that kind of argument?
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Who sets the rules?
Gay’s use “fag tag”, “gay bash” without a care in the word and this is not only entirely permissible but fully endorsed and encouraged by the gay community.
We also call straights “fag hags” or “fag stags” and yet when the straight community use gay, queer, poof, fag, etc… it is immediately pounced on as a negative derogatory term against us “HOMOSEXUALS”.
Are we for real?
“Suck on that faggots” – Not the choice of words everyone would use but she was simply stating “Take that you fools” to a straight team.
In the UK a faggot is a meatball (a meatball you eat – yes food). Clumsy people are quite often referred to as being meatballs.
Quite frankly it is not Mat Baxter who wrote a simplistic and underthought article it is the writers of some of these responses.
FAGGOT has had and to this day has quite a number of meanings – so why does a small minority of the gay community want to hold its usage to refer only to the denigration to homosexuals by the straight community YET a form of endearment when used within the gay community.
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I’m not B&T Tim, and I have nothing to do with B&T apart from being on the same network. Didn’t we have this same conversation last time you threw the whole “I checked your IP address and I know who you are” shennanigans?
Sorry to everyone who thought B&T was going to do a major branding exercise. It’s not AFAIK.
BTW Tim – do you disclose anywhere on your site’s terms and conditions or privacy policy that you routinely check up on people’s IP addresses, and that it forms part of your standard response to people who comment on Mumbrella? I’ve read your privacy policy and find no reference to this. In fact you specifically state you only collect information that is of direct commercial interest to the company.
Care to explain how looking up my IP, and not only looking it up but publishing that fact in your replies to postings constitutes information that is of direct commercial interest to the company?
Is it in your commercial interest to snoop and then poop on people here?
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Anon_Coward,
At no time have I said where you’re from. That’s been you.
But where I do discuss IP addresses is where someone is misleading readers. Based on my knowledge of your IP address, I remain deeply sceptical that you are in a position to deny Mat Baxter work, or in a position to give it to him in the first place. When you make this sort of claim to attack somebody, if I know you’re saying something which is probably untrue then I will point it out.
(And remember, I don’t know who you are anyway – I only know the IP address which you are posting from.)
Cheers,
Tim – Mumbrella
so “faggots” = “fools” (these days)
and “faggots” = “meatballs” (apparently)
therefore “fools” must = “meatballs”
In that case there are a lot Meatballs posting ill thought-out comments on this thread
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I thought faggot originally meant a piece of wood to be burnt on a fire?
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Is this still going on? What a bunch of fags…
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To The Differentiator,
The bunch of sticks is just one definition/use of the word faggot.
Faggot was also used to describe old or unpleasant women from the 16th century.
Those that gathered the faggots (sticks) were also known as a faggot-gatherer and it’s been said that the gatherers were especially older widows, who made a meagre living by gathering and selling firewood.
And as you are aware female terms, are often used with reference to homosexual or effeminate men (eg. queen, nancy, sissy, fairy….) and it’s possible that this is how faggot also progressed to encapsulating them.
The english language is for ever evolving.
It is not apparant that faggots are meatballs. It is common knowledge.
And yes, apparently there are many ill thought-out comments posted on this thread by people attacking others without any foundations to stand on other than their own ignorance.
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Ah! I see one of the problems here and it’s my bad.
I’ve mixed Universal McCann with McCann Sydney.
Blame it on being client side etc. All you agencies look alike anyway.
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@ Mark (obviously my post at 223 was tongue-in-cheek)
Anyway, words in the English language do evolve. That is not disputed.
And yes we can all use Google to find out the origin of a word.
The meaning associated with the word when referring to people has not evolved to a benign connotation however – that is my belief. And as I and others continue to argue, the word’s use in public (Twitter is a public medium, is it not?) continues to perpetuate the derogative meaning associated with being a homosexual. You and others can continue to disagree with that argument, that is your prerogative.
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I am in two minds on this.
Words can have so many meanings, and contexts can be taken out of a lot of the time.
A kid i went to high school with in regional VIC was called a Faggot endlessly. He was harrased, intimidated and called poofter, faggot, homo ever derogitory name you could think of. this went one for quite some time. In the end he couldnt deal with it and he killed himself. A person dead because of the word faggot, the meaning behind it and just how strong, mean and intimidatory term it can be.
Once he was gone the boys moved on to me. I got called Fag, Faggot, Poofer etc. I looked at all those kids and just saw sad little pathetic creatures and it just helped me toughen my skin.
So there you have it, someone who couldnt handle Faggot et al and it had a massive impact on their short life.
I dont like it but will use it to empower me when i want. but if i am walking the streets at night and i hear the word Faggot yelled across the street i still stiffen, guard goes up and i prepare for defence.
I think downplaying the strength of the word Faggot is dangerous. But context does come into it too.
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It’s “ghey” not “gay”.
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Wow, a lot of discussion on this one.
Faggots, Poofs- all words which should be deleted from our vernacular.
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So let me get this straight (if you will forgive the pun) you are going to be running an advertising agency, a large one at that, and you obvioulsy have no understanding of the power of language, or its impact on people (not matter how old they may be) – bit of a worry really…
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No Geoff, you haven’t got it straight.
It’s not an ad agency – it’s a media agency.
Cheers,
Tim – Mumbrella
this is a rediculous point of view. stick up for someone worth sticking up for. She tweeted like an idiot, and lost a few sponsorships as a result. I’m not gay and i love south park, but her remarks were wrong and insensitive. she should be forced into community service or hard labour. she also smiles too much.
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if she was a brand ambassador for jag she didn’t come across as a very smart, articulate or pleasant person. they made the right call.
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To me this is just the same as if she had said “suck on that niggers”. Matt you are an idiot if you think this was not offensive. The media uproar was completely justified.
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Her remarks were insensitive.
But nowhere near as persecuting her, sacrificing another tall poppy because it makes good media fodder.
PS: . The phrase “Go suck on that” has been around for a very, very long time. As in suck on a lemon.
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Daniel,
You and others keep comparing apples with lemons.
“suck on that niggers” directed at a south african team is in no way the same as stating “suck on that faggots” to a hetrosexual team of men.
If the south african team was made up of homosexuals then yes the two terms are the same but they are NOT.
And I don’t believe there was any media uproar, it was an Ian Roberts uproar.
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Mark, you still don’t get it. It’s not about who the insult is directed towards (or indeed if those people took offence). It’s about continually using a derogatory term originally associated with putting somebody down (e.g. homosexuals, people of a non-white race, whatever,,,) and using that term in a way that continues to infer its original meaning (e.g. homosexuals are deviant, non-whites are subhuman etc). I think Daniel’s post is meant to be an analogy pointing out this fact.
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It evolved into a derogatory term against male homosexuals – it was never “originally” associated to them.
“suck on that faggots” does NOT in any way continue to infer homosexuals are deviants.
In the UK a faggot remains a meatball (food). And speaking of the UK.
How many here use the word “pom” or “pommie”? Do you believe every english migrant to this country finds that non offensive? Especially when used in it’s original disparaging form.
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Bloody hell!
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Hey, what’s wrong. I just love a good debate.
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Mark, I think we will just need to agree to disagree. 🙂
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This debate shows just how powerful language is and anyone who denies this is just kidding themselves.
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A bit late to the fray I am afraid however a couple of points:
1. Stating you are gay to give yourself an air of authority doesnt work.
2. Arguing the change of nature of a term through the generations makes it ok.. doesnt quite ring true. If gen y thinks using the N word more broadly makes it ok??? I dont think so… times change and heritage remains. Let’s evovle and not point sticky fingers
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this says it all really.
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/sw.....14zyw.html
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After 247 odd posts the one question that has failed to be discussed or even raised – until now by Walkmethru – is the significance or meaning of why Mr Baxter chose this opportunity to announce his sexual orientation. It could be that he imagines “everyone knows I’m gay” or as he implies by being gay he is more qualified to comment on the faggot word. Perhaps both are true – although my own opion would differ on both.
I think I would prefer people in leadership positions to argue their case without stating their religion, skin colour or sexual orietation.
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These comments are hilarious! How many of you out there opened up your thesaurus? Come on, be honest now.
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@White male hetero
Hmmm… let me guess. If he hadn’t said a thing about his sexual orientation you (and others) would have accused him of being a homophobe?
Thought so.
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oh please..what ‘gaylords’
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It’s all about context. When people start using the term gay or faggot to mean something excellent then we can say no to this issue, until then Rice’s comments (and those apparantly made by all of Gen-Y) are offensive because they are intended to be derogatory. Elton John is gay – not offensive. Suck on that faggots – clearly offensive. We do not condone nigger or retard when used in such a way so I have no idea why gay people should accept it either.
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Oh puh-lease. Gen X media mistinerpreting Gen Y – what a load of crap. She said it, she shouldn’t have (particularly on mass media forum such asTwitter) but it’s all become a storm in a teacup. I don’t think she meant to offend anyone, other than the SA rugby team, but really keep comments like that yourself if you know you are in the public eye.
If Gen Y need to learn anything, it’s stop spending so much bloody time on social media sites and go out and get a real life.
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oh my i totally agree! I am 22 and was equally just as confused, I never say ‘faggots’ to mean gay people, i normally think of it as ‘fags’ as cigarettes! definetely a generation issue!
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What a great forum. Congrats to Mumbrella. Okay do you genuinely think that Stephanie Rice in the early hours of the morning actually sat down and thought about what she was twittering. There are a litany of examples where our sportstars in the midst of celebratory gesture let go much more offensive expletives. Sheesh the Cricket Team have been letting fly for decades. The Rughby teams the same. If you want apply intellectual moral conduct to people then do it to intellectuals not sports people. We breed our sports people to be aggressive and pursue winning and then revel in it. If you apply a reflective assumptive standard to our sports people then get ready for a lot of Bronze and silver and bugger all gold.
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Matt Baxter is a Jag!! ??
There are a lot of langers commenting on this article!
Had a meatball foot long sub while i read this Pile Of Sticks (POS).
And telling us what sexual orientation does not add any weight or credability to your opinion… if I was to say I’m a padeophile and I find what Stephanie Rice to be a breath of fresh who give a rats ar$e ..
Maybe we should poll the universe on this story to find out truely what % of people were offended by what Stepahine wrote on Twitter.
oh BTW Poll Results just in
None of this is newsworthy… suk on that!
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I am 21 and gay. The word is disgusting, none of my straight friends use it. They too thinks it’s horrible. Trust me – most Gen Y’ers I know think it’s an awful, awful word as well. Do not defend its use.
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Ms Rice’s use of derogatory language demonstrates once again that so-called elite athletes are one of the most self obsessed and socially unaware in our society. Discrimation cannot be excused because it is allegedly misunderstood by a media-construct called ‘generation.’. This kind of dangerous commentary could exonerate a whole ‘generation’ of German’s for their murder of homosexuals and other minorities.
The writer of this commentary will earn the right to criticise Ian Roberts when he demonstrates similar courage.
Stephanie Rice’s words prove that she is not a decent person. Only homosexuals have the right to use the word faggot.
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I have been gay and proud for 10years. Well probably all my life and only realised 10years ago. I would like to make a few points and leave it at that. If you allow these words to offend you then you have lost. Who cares what people call you or say about you. Her use of the words were just words. She uses the words faggot but not directed at you but you make it about you. I was more shocked she made a comment like that. I didn’t know that she had it in here. Let it go, move on. we are only hearing about this because of her celebrity profile. The way the media treated her was a joke. They forced her to apologise when she shouldn’t of had to. But everyone is different on how they handle things and have there own opinions. This is just mine.
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Mat you talk a lot of bollocks. She got excited let off some steam but maybe the moral of the story is – don’t write expletives for all the world to see.
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What an ill informed opinion. Kids are not stupid. They are equating “faggot with “bad”. My response to this always is: Why don’t we tell them instead to call “bad” things “nigger”? Then see how another historically suppressed community would react.
This is not on, and Stephanie Rice and everyone else who uses the word “faggot” to describe “bad”, “boring” etc need to be held accountable.
Mat Baxter, you sound like a homophobic homosexual!
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I find it slightly hilarious, to read all these comments blithely tossing about the logoes Gen X, Gen Y etc – as if these terms actually meant anything real. Human beings are not turned out in batches once every 20 years or so, nor are there cultural cut-off years in the way they think or act.
These terms are just lazy shorthand for groups of people who Do Not Actually Exist, except as nebulous, ill-defined ideas in the heads of those using them.
Gen X this, Gen Y that – these are all are just supposedly-cool-sounding alternatives to tired old stereotypical crap like “Kids these days…”, “It were different in my day”, and “That’s SO last year”.
And this basic fallacy underpins the confusion surrounding the topic in question. The fact that younger folk are a lot less sensitive, and unintentionally crueller, in the way they use language is – surprise! – not something due to any change in social values. Quite the opposite. It has always been the case, and will always be the case, until such time as a lifetime’s experience can be programmed at birth.
The longer-term direction of change is in fact the opposite from that being portrayed in the original article: people are becoming gradually less and less tolerant of “aberrant” and “politicall-incorrect” language. The very fact that Stephanie Rice’s casual rugby comment is even an issue being debated is ample proof of that.
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Because we can’t understand what intellectuals say we place more emphasis on what sports stars say. Unfortunately whilst most of us were at School Steph was Shaving Body hair and split seconds of 50 metre splits. Give her some space. She is very sorry and saddened by a split second decision that will define the rest of her life.
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The world has gone mad on polital correctness! Everyone should just harden up. It was a bit of tongue in cheek fun.
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Fully agree Dave.
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