Why ladies shouldn’t shut the **** up

Over the last few weeks I have been astounded at the approach of a couple of former very talented female colleagues who deserve to be paid well in their new roles but were incredibly over obliging during the negotiation process.

As a direct result they were taken advantage of as they felt it was wrong to be “too pushy” as it might send the wrong signals to their future employer. They were just happy to be in a job at all and were willing to sacrifice the salary they really deserved just to get in the door. The thinking is to get in the door and knock their socks off and then they will want to pay them more.

Regrettably most employers will be delighted with their efforts and take advantage
of the skills they are buying so cheaply and once again wage disparity will rare its ugly head as will the lack of seniority and promotional prospects.

Not all women have this attitude. But are those who do creating the problem?

Thank you, Elly. Well put!

Well-said Elly. Thanks for taking the time to respond thoughtfully to a piece that I found to be blinkered and naive. This type of debate shouldn’t be about shouting down those with a different opinion, but about sharing our viewpoints respectfully; you’ve done that here.

Great response.

Well said Elly.

As a woman in my 20s working full time in the media industry, I was very interested to read ‘Ladies, could we shut the **** up?’. I was also interested to hear the vehement reactions to the piece within my professional network, male and female.

At this stage in my career, like Peta, my gender has not inhibited me getting to where I want to be. However I embrace this fact with a proverbial grain of salt. (I haven’t had kids yet, nor am I eligible for an executive role at this point in time).

I too look forward to the day that men and women are seen as individuals in business. But the fact remains that right now there are far fewer women in senior roles across the board. So when Katie Rigg-Smith is appointed as the new CEO of Mindshare, i.e. the lone she wolf currently leading a major Australian media agency, it’s difficult not to be excited for her as a woman as well as an executive.

I often take for granted the abundance of opportunity that is available to me, an Australian woman in the year 2013. However the occasional whisper of gratitude to those who fought for said abundance wouldn’t go astray. The gender equality that exists in the Western world today should be celebrated and acknowledged, certainly not stifled or ignored.

The journey towards total gender equality in this country is at an intriguing place – where the focus is starting to shift towards individual ability as opposed to presumptions on account of gender. But the quite overwhelming evidence remains that women are massively, absurdly underrepresented in professional leadership roles.

And personally, I’m not going to shut up about it until it changes.

Thanks for bringing some common sense to this debate, Elly. It’s nice to see this topic tackled with more nuance than just shouting a few motivational statements and pretending theunpleasant bits about the status quo doesn’t exist.

Well put Elly what an eloquent and considered response.

Thanks Elly for clarifying some of the misccnceptions about feminism and for counterbalancing the appalling article that was posted yesterday.

*standing ovation*

Well put Elly, I was drafting a reply but you said it all. Thank you

Superb response. Sigh of relief.

Here, here!

Very well said. I was one of those *head desks*.
Thank you for taking the time to explain it as it is.

it was well written, good points, but honestly, I have to agree with Peta that the whole topic is such a bore.

Thanks Elly, I just lifted my head up off the desk

Positive discrimination in favour of the weaker sex has been going on Australia for some decades, and now it’s the young males that need to recovered and driven to achieve their natural abilities. The relatively declining and inferior male education rates relative to women is an example of where the effort must be directed between the sexes. I mean if you take human history and all its achievements, where are the women? – not to be seen (Check: Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 BC to 1950). Apart from the few alpha females (e.g. Margaret Thatcher and Gina Reinhart) the rest spend too much time talking instead of doing.

Thank you for contributing an intelligent point of view to this conversation.

Well said Elly – thank you.

Thank you Elly! Peta’s article raised my blood pressure significantly – I don’t think I’d have been capable of such an eloquent response.

Very well said, Elly. A thoughtful, eloquent and intelligent response.

Well said!

Well said Elly! Structural sexism is alive and well. As a woman in media and marketing for 25 years, the changes you do see at best are very superficial.

Brilliantly eloquent. Thank you for submitting this Elly.

Thank you for refuting this so eloquently. Sending to all my mates.

Word.

Thank you Elly for a clear, well written and eloquent response.

I keep hearing that I am the problem.

And I keep reading all these articles and comments to try and find out why I am the problem and what I can do differently.

But the issue is…I still don’t know.

can’t you girls just get along?

I hate it when you all fight with each other

you won’t find blokes carrying on like this

An incredibly well written response.

Whilst I was intrigued with yesterday’s article and agreed with a few valid points, overall I thought it took a massive step backwards and undermined all of the strength built through this issue being such as hot topic of debate.

As a woman in my 20’s in media I have worked for companies which completely subscribe to the “Boys Club” mentality and companies that foster development of people (not women vs men). I know first hand that the biggest challenge is breaking down the structure of a Boys club on any level of an organisation. To simply “join them” is validate that the associated behaviour and chat is ok when it actually puts women in a position where they have to change who they are in order to fit in.

In some organisations that 1950/60s MadMen attitude is still live and kicking and can be inhibiting to strong women, who challenge it . There are many amazing Men and Women at senior levels and as an up and comer in this industry I want to learn from all of them to move forward. I just hope that when I get to that level I can be respected for my work ethic, talent and personality and not have to adapt both my innate gender characteristics and beliefs in order to “Join the Boys.”

Elly, you nailed it. Well done!

Elly – I concur completely.
Peta – I know you and like you and I hope you weren’t intentionally setting out to create a shit-storm with your piece so I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt. But, let’s hope that your mentors (whoever they are) advise you that next time it might be a good idea to check with the people you are so vehemently criticising before you submit your opinion. That way you can ensure it is both informed and objective. You are hard-working, bright, ambitious and talented. I hope you and women like you use those powers to achieve whatever success you deserve. After all that – in a nutshell – is what generations of women before you have been advocating.

And my sanity is restored. Brilliant response Elly.

I too was one of the head thumpers. I really really appauld this article.

As a female working for a female CEO daily I get sick to the teeth of the diversity piece and was looking forward to Peta’s article but reading it through, Peta got it so so wrong I was almost in tears of frustration at the end.

Elly – a beautiful piece

I am not sure why, however after reading the previous article and now this response I am humming Shania Twain: Feel like a woman?

Glad everything is patched up.

Personally, I could work for anybody who supports me. Man or woman.

(Now the playlist has moved to Beyonce: All the single ladies…???!!

Oh dear @ hokeyfrost… I suspect you think men ‘discuss and debate’ and women ‘carry on’…

Anyone for a brew?

This is a false dilemma- “If you accept that there is no problem with structural feminism in the media industry, you are effectively saying that there just aren’t as many talented and capable women as there are men, and that is nonsense.”

Thank you all so much for your comments, the kind words and the criticisms. I’m just so pleased this conversation is being taken seriously.

Elly, thanks for pointing out the disparity in men being over-represented at the top and pay disparities between men and women. I didn’t need a history lesson or links to recent studies, I kinda already know that because I can count.

I’m really glad you are interested in “building a new model that supports diversity” – so what’s your solution? All you’ve done is point out an (obvious) problem.

If you don’t have a solution to state then all you are is an eloquent troll on Peta’s opinion piece.

Don

@ Tony Simms who posted the first comment below the article…you’re not wrong but there is an inherent expectation of both sexes by both sexes. Check out the Heidi/Howard Roizen study. To summarise, as an experiment, the name on an identical resume was changed from Heidi to Howard. People (both men and women) found Howard ambitious and likeable but found Heidi pushy and unlikeable, even though they had the exact same history and credentials.

I’m currently reading “Lean In”, written by Sheryl Sandberg, COO of Facebook. It makes for very interesting reading and both men and women could learn a lot from it.

Thank goodness for this article appearing today. If I’d had one iota of energy left after work last night I would have submitted something myself.

Hi Don,

I’m afraid that rebuilding centuries of workplace structures in 700 words is well beyond my capabilities. If Mumbrella would be good enough to have me back I’d love to start kicking around some ideas!

Thanks,
Elly

The biggest problem associated with political claptrap, is its overwhelming ability to cover so much of the real problem.

“Why ladies (what ever happened to the wonderful word women) should/shouldn’t shut the **** up,” to join two quotes, represents the opinions of two women who are equally entitled to express them and who both have something to say about a perceived problem within the fabric of society.

It is a good thing, in my opinion, to open doors and examine differences of opinion, quite another to draw lines in the sand and form support groups, from which we are inclined to take shots at each other.

That men or women are over-represented in certain groups, is not in itself an indication of a problem. There are problems which need solving, but the quoting of proportional representation or the manipulation of statistics will be no more effective in solving them, than lobby group opinion polls.

Elly: Why did you only focus on structural sexism? Is it to capitalise on a political advantage. It should be: Structural / Institutional Discrimination: – Full Stop.

Extend your augments to someone of a different background. It is even more scary? Would you than be exempt from participating in Structural / Institutional Discrimination?

The more glaringly obvious issue of racial equality, both at the top and the bottom, of the industry is not discussed by your group that purport to support equality. Neither for that matter is any other industry group.

Is there a word for that?

Hi Emma,

I completely agree with you. To quote people with for more experience in this area than me, feminism that isn’t intersectional is bullshit. There are a few reasons why I didn’t explore other areas of inequality. I’m a white women, so I think it would be condescending of me to assume to speak for people of colour and their experiences, but I’m sure Mumbrella would publish a piece from that perspective. The reason why I addressed structural sexism is because I was responding to an article about gender equity, and in 700 words I was scarcely able to cover all the things I could say about that.

There are some any issues here, gender, class, ethnicity, sexuality, I’d definitely be really keen to open up the discussion to all of these issues. I’d really encourage you to write about this and submit.

Thanks,
Elly

Thank you so much for saying what I was thinking. After reading Peta’s article I was so outraged that I couldn’t actually be bothered responding… and I normally ride my virtual high-horse into the sunset. I’m glad you didn’t reach that point and got to the keyboard despite a possible concussion from your aforementioned head injury. I’d encourage Peta to not only look outside of her own occupation but outside of the country and across to places like Saudi Arabia where women aren’t legally allowed to drive a car or be seen without a male guardian. Saudi women are hopefully getting the right to vote in 2015! What a slow road! I highly doubt Peta would deliver her “chillax” sermon over there. But some people fail to see outside of their own experiences. Additionally, if she realised what “joining the boys” means in some companies, she would find herself attending some pretty interesting entertainment venues.

I’m going to get lambasted for this, but don’t women CHOSE the jobs they take. Might not these ‘poor’ choices in taking the lesser paying jobs from the start be related to future thoughts/concerns/consideration for any chosen parenting responsibilities?
In my own, overwhelmingly female industry (ultrasound imaging), most of my colleagues do not want to work FT, let alone in any higher level/managerial roles. Some do, and they are encouraged and supported, but MOST don’t.
I’m not sure if any overwhelming cultural influence penalises women either way. If they want the money, they can work the hours/take the responsibility. It would seem, most don’t want to.
Very best of luck to those that do.
P.S. My husband finds the same reluctance in his industry as well, which involves excessive travel and many hours of ‘work from home’ conference calls.
Exactly who looks after the kids? We can’t both be out of the country, but it is a CHOICE I make, as do clearly many 000’s of other women.

Brilliant – you speak for me. Mine was one of the heads that thumped to the desk! Thank goodness you responded so eloquently as I generally prefer to suck vomit out of an old sock in a gutter than have to explain these things over and over again!

… but what really needs to happen is a wholesale reexamination of how workplaces RECRUIT SENIOR TALENT so that they can evolve and be structured to INCLUDE both men and women.

Two thirds of ASX 500 companies have had not had a female executive in the past two years. Many of them have not had female executives at all.

Yes let’s SOLVE this problem and finally make it simple for women to succeed – the immediate benefits being increased GDP 5% ($180B) and an unmeasured improvement to our nation’s social-wealth and cohesion.

Gerrie, the article is about the barriers that workplace structures place in the way of women.

For example, you have said ” If they want the money, they can work the hours/take the responsibility.” and as you rightly point out “who looks after the kids?”. This is what happens when workplaces measure the value of an employee by the hours they put in and this describes a workplace structure that limits the choices of anyone who wants to take an active role in their family.

What if workplaces were structured in such a way that what you produced was valued more than the number of hours you put in? For example, if you were able to achieve the daily goals of your job in 6 hours instead of 8 hours. We’ve all worked with people who do only a portion of the work in the same number of hours as their colleagues but still get paid the same as their more productive workmates. If you’re able to “save” a couple of hours a day you could then use those hours for other responsibilities such as child care.

I’m not advocating this as an actual change to be implemented as it’s not that simple. I’m just pointing out that there are different ways to achieve the outcomes that employers are seeking which could also result in genuinely equal opportunity. That’s the whole point of the article.

At the moment women do “CHOOSE” what they do but it has to be recognised that they often have a limited range to choose from because current workplace structures don’t recognise the other responsibilities that most women have or regard them as a nuisance. To turn what you have said around, you could say that in choosing jobs which involve long hours men are choosing to only take financial responsibility and not to take on the other responsibilities of family, leaving those with the woman to shoulder and fit her working life around.

The workplace structures which restrict women to part time work so they can fit in other responsibilities are the same ones which are, I think unreasonably, restricting men like your husband to working long hours and preventing them from taking some of the responsibility for other matters in their lives such as child care or even their own health. Wouldn’t you like to see him home more often, or, when he is at home, engaging with you and your family instead of focused on a conference call?

There’s nothing wrong with trying to think of better ways to do things which benefit all of the stakeholders which includes employers, the women and men who work for them and the families, friends and others in the lives of those men and women.

The only reason we are voting is because we refused to shut the ****up!

Thank you Elly for your considered response

Elly Yes you can speak-up to keep the flame of anti-discrimination in everyone’s eyes using your story to as a key to open up and highlight the obscene discrimination that takes place in the industry both at the front end and back-end..

Just look around any establishment some are so pure that there are no other voices to speak up for those excluded.

The I spy racism, sexism, discrimination that goes on in the industry, such as the “Yes they are” / “No they are not xyzists” flame-wars in mUmbrella, are just a facile cover-up. Very few of the respondents here could extend their vision of their fight to others in the same boat.

A positive side effect of culturally specific middle class feminism is that it has gradually introduced other ideas into the media world. Only a fool would now exploit the old-fashioned stereotype of a female. But when it comes to portraying those of other backgrounds, the majority of TVC’s still portrays an almost KKK version of Australia; unless of course their stereotype needs to be exploited for the punch line.

In a commercial, this goes on with a group who has been discriminated against probably participating in the project.

The following scenario highlights your intersectional point.
For corporate compliance who is more likely to get the job? A black male or a black female
Some of the ingredients in the mix are. A black male may be more challenging to those with simplistic stereotypes. Only one gets to tick two check boxes.

This for everyone
What chance would someone with the name such as “Hosien” on their CV have in just getting through to the interview process in your company.
Answers on a postcard please.

Tim – Elly sounds like she has some good ideas on how to tackle the problems faced by women. How about we elevate this discussion and start talking about SOLUTIONS. Elly says she would gladly write a piece if Mumbrella would have her back.. come on Tim, let her do it.

As a Straight White Male, I am always told I am part of the problem. Sometimes very eloquently, sometimes not. What I am never told are practical steps to address the imbalance. No one ever talks about practical solutions, I think now is a good time to start

Don

Thank you for such a smart response – I had bashed out four angry paragraphs but your response is far more elegant and appropriate.
I suspect Peta’s views may change when she does not get a senior job because `they are looking for a man’ (this happened to a colleague recently). When she is treated as the assistant to someone to who is junior to her (because of her gender); when she is told to `not worry her pretty little head about it’; when she is told a female colleague has been promoted because she knows who to sleep with.
Australia really will become a meritocracy when it is impossible for these conversations to take place.

@Don – good question. My contribution to the solution has been to build my own company, appoint a working mother as CEO (me) and hire brilliant and talented women (and men), many of whom are parents, all of whom work remotely with flexible working conditions.

I hope we see more women & men build companies devoid of structural sexism, that are “as it should be” ( to quote the brilliant film Made In Dagenham which focused on women’s fight for equal pay).

As per #28, this article asserts there is structural sexism, So tell me where. you’ve said it’s hard to identify, so help me see it.

This article is fluff.

Elly, I think I love you.
Your response was written with the wisdom of experience that the author of the first article so clearly lacks.
Thank you.

U go girl mm hmm *snaps fingers in 3 times in right to left sequence*.