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The interview you all wanted. Aleisha McCall responds to adland’s ‘worst’ job ad of 2020
Aleisha McCall has attracted criticism this week for her 'demanding', 'demeaning', 'diabolical' job ad - but she is defiant. Is she sorry? No. Does she accept the criticisms? No. Will she back down? No.
She is, she says, being bullied, and won't stand for it.
In this Q&A with Mumbrella's editor Vivienne Kelly the evening after she attracted headlines for all the wrong reasons, McCall doubles down. Strap in though, it's a long one.
INTERVIEW
Aleisha McCall, founder and CEO (and author of that job ad), Ultimate Edge Communications (AM)
Vivienne Kelly, editor, Mumbrella (VK)
VK: Now obviously you want to tell your side of the story, for want of a better phrase, about this job ad that’s attracted some attention online. I’m sure you would have seen and read some of the criticisms on Twitter and whatnot. What is your response to people who have been critical of how thorough the demands of this job are?
AM: Look. I’m speaking up like this, because I feel like someone has to. I’m a working mum with two beautiful daughters. I’ve got a six-month baby girl and an almost three-year-old girl as well, Millie, and a loving husband, a wonderful family, and they’re obviously all worried about the online bullying I guess of people quick to criticise and put others down, just like what’s happened with this ad.
I’m strong, and I’m a strong woman, I’ve been running my business now for the last five-and-a-half, six years with obviously lots of ups and downs, lots of challenges, and also lots of highlights as well. And I guess I’m just disappointed in people’s perspective to just jump all over me because, you know, ironically we’ve had a record number of great candidates that have resonated with the job ad. They’re genuinely looking forward to the opportunity and the opportunity to earn $100,000 to $150,000 in their salary.
I understand that it’s not a normal job ad, but I’m looking for someone really specific to help me achieve outcomes in all areas of my life. And I know that’s probably uncommon and unique but, I’m the type of person, the type of woman that’s wanting to wear multiple hats, wanting to be a great wife, a great mum, a great businesswoman, team member and so on, and be there for my clients, and I need to make it work.
So, being committed to all of those elements in my life equally, I don’t, and as a woman, I guess, I don’t want to be making apologies or excuses for that. It’s 2020. And I want to continue to be the woman that my daughters can look up to, and someone who stands for their principles and isn’t afraid to ask for this type of person. Call it whoever you want, but I know there’s someone really special out there that’s going to want to join me, and come out the other side of COVID with me and help me achieve those outcomes.
And I guess secondly, I just hope I can provide some hope for all those other hard-working mums, I guess, who can maybe sympathise and empathise with the challenges involved in making it all work and being everything to everyone. My fundamental core principle is to commit to producing those results for our clients. And those clients, especially in COVID, have really come to count on us to be able to deliver for them.
We have been working. I’ve been working non-stop, seven days a week through this period to make sure that our clients get through, we get through and we come out the other side. And, you know, I guess I’m not afraid to admit that I do need help. I need to know that a Trudy or a Jasmine or a frickin’ Katie, or a whoever, who have already sent some amazing YouTube videos through, will be one that will be successful and one special person that I’ll be able to bring on the next phase of the journey with me as I come out the other side of COVID and who’s really right for the role.
McCall is not sorry
So I guess my fundamental challenge is just, after everything we’ve been through, after COVID, after everything that’s happened, and I see the backlash on Twitter, I see the backlash on Mumbrella and so forth, I kind of ask myself, like ‘My God. Seriously? We’re in the middle of a pandemic. We’ve got to be better than this’. And I guess that’s what I’m sort of struggling with as I, obviously not reading the comments too much, doing my best to rise above it, and move on and hire the people for the roles I’ve got out in market. Focus on my clients. Focus on my team. Focus on my family. And just remember through all of this that they’re the reason that I get out of bed in the morning, and they’re the reason that I go through all of this to get their outcomes. And I’ve just got to remind myself of that.
VK: You mentioned that you’re a working mum and the various challenges that are associated with the logistics of that. So what about the criticism that the job ad seems to skirt around the fact that you want someone who – it almost reads like you’re trying to get around saying ‘I want somebody without children’. Now, obviously, legally you can’t say that, but there’s heavy implications in the job ad about short breaks, long hours, you require full dedication, and some people have read that as you want somebody without kids…
AM: Yeah, look. That’s definitely not the case. Actually a lot of the applicants have got young kids. So two of the YouTube ladies that have sent a video through, Trudy and I think Katy, have both got kids, both got young families. And what I was trying to do there is, we’re getting, for our roles right now, we’re getting 150 to 200 applicants. So I want to speak directly to people who do have a commitment.
Now, as a working mum, I know I’ve got girlfriends as well that are crazy through the day, short breaks, making it happen, being dynamic, logging off for a few hours, and then once the kids are down, jumping back on at night. And that type of flexibility is key. But they’re still doing big days. We’re still working 12, 14, and sometimes during COVID, I don’t know about everybody else, but for me sometimes 16 hours a day. And I’m not, from my point of view, I just need to know that I can count on someone to help out if there are things that pop up.
A current offer from Ultimate Edge Communications
And some of the ladies that have been applying for the role have been going ‘Yeah, cool. Like if I’m logging off for a few hours to get my kids fed, down to bed, all that kind of thing, I’m normally sort of back on at night sort of available if anything does pop up’. Because it’s just the sheer pace of the way I’m working, and the outcomes that need to be achieved and the things that need to be done. I think that’s probably where, unfortunately, it was misinterpreted.
I’m also trying to speak to that person who does know that they can totally do it, along with the other things that they’ve got going on – and they can make that the priority.
VK: And why is it such an extensive recruitment process? What would you say to people who think that that’s a bit extreme?
AM: Look, we’ve trialled so many different things to get to a place where we can get the recruitment strategy right, and I honestly think this is one of the most challenging aspects of business. It certainly has been in my journey. And what I’m aiming to do here is I need to be able to get people to self-select in. And a lot of the time, you can end up with 150, 200 applications, but a lot of them are wasting their time and wasting our time, because they’re just not the right fit.
If I can speak to people directly, and if I can draw at some of those strings and either get people really like ‘Hey that’s totally not for me’ – which we’ve said multiple times in the ad – or ‘You know what? She’s full on, but I like her, and I reckon I could really benefit or add a lot of value there’. They’re the people that I want to select-in to then be able to consider joining the team.
Because it’s got to be, I understand that the ad is very direct, but I’ve got to be confident in them, and they’ve got to be just as confident in me. And that’s why I took the time to put the video, to support the ad, to talk to these ladies, and men, directly to say, ‘This is how it is. This is where I’m at. This is what I need. I’m willing to pay $100,000, $150,000 to get this person. If this sounds like you, then let’s chat’.
VK: It does appear though that the ad has changed, or been removed. Is that because of the blowback, or is it because you’re further down the recruitment process now?
An excerpt from the amended job ad [Click to enlarge]
AM: Look, two parts. Last night it was quite overwhelming, obviously the feedback on Twitter and the feedback across Mumbrella and so on. So we took a pause, because on top of that, the applications were overwhelming, and we were already bringing about five or six people through to the next round. And then obviously reposted this morning.
So that was really a matter of regrouping because I didn’t anticipate, or could have ever expected the level of interest this got, but also the level of hate, and that was obviously quite challenging to take. So we took a breath overnight and then reposted this morning.
VK: And some people have also pointed to an old job ad where it was looking for a ‘Donna from Suits’. Was that you as well? Or was that somebody else?
AM: No, that was somebody else. That’s not from me. This is the first time, obviously with the focus in the business of when I first started, it was all about me and just my sheer force. And I was just going out with a small team. I then went into a ‘systemise and scale’ phase for the last two years, which has been incredibly challenging and now I’m coming out the other side of that, obviously also coming out of having my two kids and working full time to go ‘Okay, for the first time now, I need a PA’. So this is the first time that I have gone out to market for me to get that assistant.
VK: I’m sure you’ve noticed that everybody online is very eagle-eyed and one of the things that they criticised is in the job ad, you referencing the B&T win, which some people are saying you were nominated, rather than won. Did you have any comment on that?
AM: So I won both the B&T Media 30 Under 30 in 2013. I won the B&T Women In Media in 2014. And I think I was a finalist in 2015 and 2016. So I’ve won two awards from B&T. B&T Media Rising Star in 2014, and the B&T Media in 2013. So you can look that up. B&T can look that up. And they’ll see that I’ve won those awards.
McCall (then Haslemore) winning a B&T 30 Under 30 Award
[Editor’s note: After this interview, McCall sent through the images of her wins, clarifying that she won under her unmarried name.]
VK: So, what’s your plan now? Not many people would be bold enough to want to give this more air time and to want to do the interview – I think most people probably just would have wanted this to go away. What made you want to continue to give this oxygen, I guess?
AM: I guess it’s to me, the other women that are going through this and are probably challenged by this, and are having to deal with these elements on a day-to-day basis and realising like ‘Hang on a second. We’re in 2020, we lean in, Sheryl Sandberg’s done everything for us to help us to get to a higher level, yet we’re still in a position where women are being bullied and ridiculed for trying to make a go of it and trying to make it all happen, and to be the best version of themselves for their husbands, for their families, for their businesses, for their teams.’
And for me, I guess the reason I did that was I just went, ‘You know what? I want to be, hopefully, a beacon and, hopefully, an influence for these women’. And also, hopefully they can empathise and sympathise with the challenges involved in making it all work. And not all the time you are going to get it right, but when you’ve got focus, when you’ve got spirit, when you believe in what you’re doing, when you are fiercely dedicated to delivering those client results, you’re going to make it past this hate. You’re going to make it past this stupidity of 2020 and where we are and the situation we’re in and all this hate is still happening.
And I just felt that I had to say something, someone has to say something. These haters can’t get away with this by hiding behind screens. And I’m willing to step up. I’m willing to speak up. I’m willing to put myself on the line to showcase that ‘You know what? In spite of all that, I’m going to keep doing what I’m doing.I’m going to keep being the person that I am, and I’m going to keep driving forward and focusing on the reasons why I get myself out of bed in the morning, which is for my family, which is for my clients and for my team.’ And all I need is, as long as they believe that, as long as they’re with me on that journey, then, you know, I’m good. Because they’re the reason I go through all of this, and if they were watching or listening or reading in future, my message would be to the clients, to my team, to my family, just thank you so much for all their continued love, understanding, and support. This level of negativity is not easy to take, but all I would want them to know is they’re the reason that I keep going and I love them and I think they’re awesome.
VK: So you’re obviously not backing down or saying sorry?
AM: Not at all. No. No. Not at all.
I stand for what I’m doing. I’ve always been someone who’s… I was a competitive figure skater before I even got into media, and I’ve always been focussed on outcomes, focussed on goals, and I know that the road I’m taking is not the easy road. It’s the path less travelled. And it does come with far more challenges, far more pushback and far more setbacks than probably what people are used to. But everyone gets the opportunity to live their own life. Everyone gets the opportunity to live their own destiny and this is the path that I’m choosing, and I want to keep at it. Because I really think that ultimately, it already is something amazing, and I really think we can be something amazing in the future as well.
VK: And with the spotlight on diversity at the moment, do you have any concerns about the job ad talking about the brand image of the applicant in terms of having no visible tattoos and body piercings and a certain type of fashion and ‘professionalism’ – do you have any fears about how that could be read in 2020?
AM: Look, I think, and as we say in the job ad, everyone is open to their own expression, and we respect everybody for what they want to do, however at Ultimate Edge what our clients expect, and also what our team needs is that personal standard of level of presentation, level of, I sometimes call it ‘Dress for success’. When I get up in the morning, I put my heels on and I am ready to rock and roll, and we’re able to present that ‘We’ve got this’ message to our clients.
And that’s not through any disrespect. My family members have tattoos. I have family members that smoke and so on, but it’s just a level that our clients have come to expect from us, and that we now uphold for our clients based on their requests over the years. And that’s really just about the standards that we set for ourselves in order to achieve the outcomes that we’re going after.
McCall, then Haslemore, picked up another award in 2014
VK: Do you concede that it is a very, very long job ad though?
AM: Look, it is. Absolutely, I absolutely acknowledge that it’s a long job [ad], and I acknowledge that there’s a lot of detail in there. There’s a lot of specificity. But it’s really around trying to get people to self-select in who are drawn to this, and are drawn to – because I understand it’s not for everyone and that’s why I say multiple times throughout the ad, ‘If this is not for you, I completely respect you’.
The emails, I’m still online at 2am, because I haven’t got an EA, going through these job applications, responding to people thanking them for taking the time to go through our lengthy job process, because we’ve got to find – I know the cost to both my business and to the applicant if we don’t get this right, and I feel the weight of that. So I’m doing my best to come up with strategies and a ways in which we can allow people to self-select in or out, so that we do get it right, and we do find the right people that want to come on that journey with us.
VK: So what lesson will you take from this experience then?
AM: I think for me it’s about, it’s very easy to get overwhelmed by the hate and by people’s opinions that are not necessarily out doing what you’re doing and dealing with the challenges that you’re dealing with on a daily basis, and it reminds me that everyone’s dealing with their own issues. Everyone’s dealing with their own challenges, and we all just need to have a little bit more compassion for each other, because you really don’t know what’s going on in other people’s worlds. You really don’t know the full side to the story or the full situation of what the context of any given element is.
And so what I’m going to take away from this is obviously thinking, moving forward about how I can continue to hone my communication, how I can continue to hone my skills, but also how I can continue to be the example in the market for my beautiful girls, for my clients, for my team, for my family, so I can continue to achieve my outcomes and be the example that I would be proud of in years to come. And that’s not an easy path. I fully acknowledge that. It’s not a straightforward process. It comes with a lot of challenges like what I’m going through right now, but I have to believe it’s worth it. And I’m reminded every day when I’m with clients, when I’m with my team, when I’m with my family, and I have to hold onto that and shut out the hate.
VK: And what about those people who’ve gone and found old reviews of working at Ultimate Edge? Do you have any response to the criticisms that are contained in those Glassdoor reviews?
AM: Look, that’s a whole other conversation for another time. And if you guys want to write an article on that, I’m happy to respond, but you’re going to have to sit down with me for three hours and grab a bottle of wine, because the story that I’ve got for you on that one – it’s a good one, but that was a really challenging journey. I came out of the first stage of the business of, where it was all me, sheer force, making it happen, and then I realised ‘Oh, gosh’. I knew I had to, but the time came where I had to systemise scale and automate. And that’s the last two years.
So yeah, if you’ve got three hours and you’ve got a bottle of good New Zealand wine, I would love to sit down and take you through that journey.
VK: Look, it’s very hard for me to find three hours in any day, but I do love a good wine, so that sounds like a compelling offer if nothing else. Was there anything else that you wanted to add or wanted to get across in this interview?
AM: No, look, I think it’s just, you know, my advice to any woman out there that is making a go of it, and I always say I’m learning how to run the business while I’m running the business, and each day I’m showing up as a better version of myself because I’m taking constant and immediate feedback, refining my craft, refining my role and getting better and better results. And my advice is just to those women that are out there that might be in a similar position where they have had some setbacks and have had some comments like this, is just to keep at it, believe in yourself. No-one is ever going to back you as much as you back yourself. And just frickin’ go for it, because if you believe in it enough, and if you believe you’re doing it for all the right reasons, good stuff will happen.
And that’s where I’m at right now. I know that I’m turning a corner, I’m pivoting, I’m getting better at what I do. And I’m going to keep kicking on, because, you know, I know that what Ultimate Edge has become and what it’s going to be in five years from now is going to be a pretty amazing story.
VK: Alright, Aleisha, I really appreciate you being so bold as to do this interview. I’m not sure that I would have done it, but I really appreciate you taking the time out of your evening to offer up your version of events.
Not so long ago I had an awful day at work and in my personal life, messaged my Dad talking about how tough it was, how everyone can pile in and how easy it was for people in jobs to criticise those trying to create jobs.
He replied with this: “It is lonely and you fight for every dollar, but you are changing people, influencing careers, putting people into home ownership through your ingenuity and all with your own initiative.. that is why entrepreneurs need to be rewarded and deserve every penny. Sadly few in society understand it. Keep going, will be with you every step.”
Good for you Aleisha, and know there are some of us out there who really respect you doing this and giving things a try.
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You basically dismissed the most pressing questions of the ‘Donna’ ad, published by your mentor and colleague, as well as the Glassdoor reviews… If you have the time to commit to this sham of an interview at least provide sufficient answers the controversial topics….absolutely pointless!
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Just look at the feedback on GlassDoor – an unethical and antisocial operation that should be stopped!
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Comment above…definitely written by her.
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“I’m a woman and have kids” You think that somehow makes you special? A joke job ad for a joke company.
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Thx 4 sharing UR side of it.
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So your staff are unhappy and your employee churn is over 100% because you “ had to systemise scale and automate”. Ah ok, sure. Look, i’m all for buzz words, but you need to use them in context
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So her clients expect her EA to not have tattoos or piercings? That’s rather presumptuous. Who are her clients?
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I found this interview quite frustrating. How many times can you mention ‘woman’ and ‘working mum’… It’s not an excuse for a deplorable ad and work culture. When everyone can see that there’s a problem and you can’t, that’s pretty unfortunate…
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Not so long ago I had an awful day at work and during my lunchtime as well, so I messaged my Dad talking about how tough it was, how everyone can pile in and how easy it was for people owning companies to justify their actions, no matter how screwed up, through saying they do it all for other people, and they have an incredibly hard life having to be perfect.
He replied with this: “It is bullshit, and you fight for normality, most people don’t put up with narcissists but you can never make a narcissist see what their problems really are. They will probably say they are changing people, influencing careers, putting people into home ownership through their ingenuity and all with their own initiative.. that is why they think entrepreneurs need to be rewarded and deserve every penny. Most in society understand these personalities. Run away, fast, and sanity will be with you every step.”
Good for you Aleisha, and know there are some of us out there who really understand who you are, why you doing this and giving things a try in this way.
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So I guess this isn’t quite true?
https://www.marketpressrelease.com/Ultimate-Edge-Communications-Confirms-It-Switched-To-A-4-Day-Workweek-Earlier-This-Year-1568159917.html
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I worked at UEC and the 4-day work week was great. I miss the flexibility, i’m going to be stuck back to the M-F 9-5 routine when covid’s over 🙁
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sounds horrible! stop doing 4.35 minute videos, say what you mean not just jargon and you might have a bit more time on your hands.
How many applications were received before the ad was pulled?
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Worryingly she doesn’t even seem to understand the issues with the job ad. Somehow being a mum or a woman or full force or whatever is some kind of justification for the obviously terrible workplace that obviously follows.
Aleisha, I suggest you take the time to read your feedback on glassdoor using your full force.. as it’s very telling. And you can’t fix those issues with buzzwords, cliches and double speak
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there are 3 things i dont like
1. “as a working mum” takes equality back 50 years
2. me me me – seems like everything is about her
3. “Im being bullied” – it seems like there is a culture of bullying – she must be helping construct.
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R/ThatHappened
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Looking forward to the follow up interview addressing the glassdoor reviews. She brushes the question off so easily despite there being a whole bunch of reviews from this year!
I am happy to supply the wine
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I’ve been following this with great interest over the last few days, so thank you to Tim and Mumbrella. Obviously there is no merit in a witch hunt against this individual, as her right to self expression is as valid as the next persons. However I have a couple of observations. Firstly the total lack of humility of understanding that she completely misunderstands the mood of both the marketing community and the world in general. The vacuous buzzword double speak for a starter would just be cringeworthy, if it wasn’t highly detrimental to our industry. Clients, staff, the whole of humanity are not impressed by using seven impenetrable words, that just cause even more confusion. Speak clearly, calmly and simply to get your ideas across. If you can’t do that, swallow your pride and invest in someone who can help you. Secondly don’t play the mother card to divert from bad behaviour, here’s a thought we are all parents. But don’t find the need to use it as a shield for not respecting our fellow humans.Be nice, be empathetic and teach your children a real lesson. And mostly, just admit you could have done this better, learn from the feedback and feed it into your future actions. That will be far more impressive than your vague idea of a ‘strong’ and ‘tough’ person.
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To be fair on Aleisha it does seem that many of the staff issues with how the agency runs are directed squarely at her business partner (http://www.marcdussault.com/), who appears to be quite a special case.
Many of the ex-staff Glassdoor reviews call out a significant disconnect between her stated vision and hard reality of working there.
It would be interesting to hear Marc’s take on why the agency is structured / operated the way it is, how that impacts on staff churn and agency culture, and (ultimately) their quality of performance for clients..?
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Mumbrella, what a massively wasted opportunity. I believe what we have here is at the very heart of a lot of issues facing marketing and comms consultancies. I can’t imagine why you ran a fluffy interview light? If you are going to do this, do it properly take some time and actually address the very obvious issues here. This comes across as an advertorial at best. Very disappointed.
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Great points but just to clarify we are not all parents but we are all children if that’s what you meant?
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16 hour days should not be expected from employees whether you pay them $100k or $1m. You might be happy to do those hours because it’s your business but you literally have a vested interest.
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Wow, a real life Alan Partridge
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Hi ‘BFS’,
Shockingly, I disagree, but you are, of course, entitled to your opinion.
The spotlight was on the ad, its implications and its demands. I asked about the overly onerous requirements and recruitment process, the discrimination implications, the poor reviews of working at the agency and the allegations she had made up B&T Award wins.
I can’t control the answers she gave.
Based on the response, I’d hardly say this whole exercise has been viewed as positive PR or an ‘advertorial’, and I’m sorry you see this as a waste of time.
Vivienne – Mumbrella
People get paid overtime in other roles. A big salary is to compensate them for working overtime. No issue with that.
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Using the mom card multiple times as a shield from criticism is weak. Employers like you, who take advantage, are everything that is wrong with the marketing world in Sydney. I said it under the last post and I’ll say it again, you need to hire a nanny, PA, and a digital specialist and you are cheap and looking to cram them into one. What a self important load of bs this interview was and Mumbrella shame, what a waste of an opportunity. I’m not entirely convinced this wasn’t a PR stunt for attention. All businesses are struggling with Covid and there are lot of moms who find the balance. Perhaps take a step back-not hire an indentured servant. Absolute narcissistic rubbish.
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Too Right…
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It would make for entertaining reading am sure to do a follow-up interview with the dozens of past employees that have left according to Glassdoor. Or do a part 2 interview with the EA that gets the job in a few months, if the person is still around that is.
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According to all the legitimate glassdoor reviews, all the staff seem to be working 50-60 hours a week and still somehow in deficit to the organisation. Not sure how I would feel about cramming 50-60 hours worth of work into a supposed 4 day week.
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Speaking as a Mother…
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Look I didn’t bothering reading much of the interview because ultimately, we’re talking about mental health here, Aleisha needs support and help rather than beating her up or allowing her a platform to humiliate herself. Maybe putting her in touch with a mental health professional to help her is a better way forward?
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I’m all aboot this.
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Let’s stop pretending like $150k justifies working 16 hour days? There are literally Heads and C-level execs who can’t flip a PDF getting paid $300k for delegating. If it’s $150k before tax, that’s equivalent of low level Director pays for AdTech in AU. Heck I know Campaign Managers/AMs getting paid 100k before tax and even they would never work 16 hour days.
Granted, pay is subjective and there will be people happy to take $150k. All I’m saying is it’s not exactly a huuuuge salary. IMO definitely not worth working 16 hour days.
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“Not many people would be bold enough to want to give this more air time and to want to do the interview”
Then why are we giving this more airtime!?
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She comes across as the comms world’s Lance Armstrong. Narcissist in the extreme.
“We did what we had to do to win. I wouldn’t change a thing”
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This entire thing is rendered void by the complete sidestep of the HUGE number of glassdoor reviews that make it clear this is a toxic place to work. The fact she has to dodge that and focuses on playing the victim is all you really need to know.
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Hi Vivienne,
Great job covering this and thank you for the interview, it seems you highlighted many of the obvious concerning points on this topic, yet Aleisha seemed to have danced around everything with a bombardment of verbal diarrhea rather than clearly addressing any of the concerns. This seems to give insight into the lack of awareness of everything around her. I find it amusing that she’s claiming to be bullied, yet according to GD reviews, her and her management team seem to be the bullies within their four walls.
My question to you Vivienne is…
When will you follow up with Episode 3 of this saga, and if you plan to dive deeper into this business partner who seems to be a recurring theme.
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Supply and demand, my friend.
On the supply side, Aleisha asked for the interview both in the comment thread of the original piece, and over LinkedIn.
On the demand side, based on the volume of comments (both published and unpublished), and the texts I was receiving, and the traffic numbers, I could see there was an appetite for the follow-up that was on offer.
Aleisha wanted to tell her ‘side’ of the story, and people wanted to hear it.
As I said, me? I wouldn’t have done the follow-up had I been in her shoes, but that’s for her to decide.
If, however, it does not interest you, I’m not sure why you’re here?
Vivienne – Mumbrella
Many of us are working mothers, we’re just not so entitled as to think you can ask ‘everything’ of a candidate, regardless of remuneration. You need to understand boundaries and potentially split up your myriad business and personal ‘requirements’ across multiple roles.
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Very few narcissists would believe they have mental health issues, much less seek help or support.
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“Look”, the world isn’t like this any more and expecting these OH&S based impacts on worker well-being to be put aside for the sake of fitting in with an entrepreneur/business owner’s lifestyle is pretty uncool. This is a role for two people if the hours are required like this. Stagger shifts, get two people to work part time and job share, split out tasks, get a freelancer on retainer for certain tasks – get creative about solving the problems rather than breaking rules and harming people.
Being a “working Mum” is not any worker’s problem, nor a right to expect other people to fit into your world. Innocent people are after work at the moment and just because they applied for the job doesn’t make it right. Unfortunately I think this just might be a matter of lack of education on the rules, as an employer. If anyone actually made a workplace claim against the company they’d win. So, best get educated about the rules. This is a good learning for the whole industry, that hasn’t been that great over the years.
I may work long hours as a business owner but no way in hell can I expect a worker to do that for me. That is outright exploitation. Good on Vivienne for asking these questions and having the people involved the opportunity to hang themselves out to dry with ill-informed answers. Sadly the answers showed ignorance and arrogance that is misguided – time to get proper HR support I suggest. There are outsource services available.
A good article for the future may be an outline of what the rules actually are, and how to run a creative business and not go to jail over it.
Aleisha, you must think we’re all stupid. Your flat out denial of the “Donna” ad is appalling. It’s very painfully obvious that it was from your company and you’ve used the same ad this time around, so you are clearly lying through your teeth. It’s clear your business partner wrote the Donna ad and you’ve revised it to this new (equally obnoxious) job ad but you approve every piece of comms that goes out.
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So straight up lying regarding the Donna Advert? That was Marc Dussault, advertising for this exact same role of magical office manager/child minder/slave
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4 day is a lie, as an ex employee you will get stuck answering calls and emails on the weekend and if you don’t or push back your reprimanded
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Can I get a workplace abuse pass please?
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I thought for a moment, this was Jason Dooris’s new business.
Having checked out the website, the style if writing and the claims being made !
Wowsers.
Thus is not what our industry should be. Stamp it out please!
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I love the fact that many answers started with “Look…”. A trait that does not emit positivity. If one has the need to explain themselves each time yet does not have the humility to consider other rationale, everything about this is all to self serving.
The most qualified candidate for the job is a slave.
I’m with the mental health check point and possibly some offline time.
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Why did the interviewer not push her harder on her BS answers about how she’s a “mother” and therefore she has different needs and priorities from others? It’s not like she’s the only parent in the world and honestly it felt like a missed opportunity to actually nail her on some of the more ludicrous requirements for the job.
Why is a Youtube video necessary for a job application as an executive assistant? A more cynical reader might see this as her wanting to screen out certain groups of people or even just unattractive people in general.
Sure she says that she has family members who have tattoos and smoke, but that doesn’t excuse her language in the ad that “Most of our team don’t smoke and resent smokers who are often absent outside having a smoke or vaping”
Honestly this entire piece felt like a PR piece for Aleisha rather than any actual journalism.
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It’s actually discrimination.
Yet another reason to steer clear, both as a client and an employee / potential employee.
And…
$100-$150k is the salary range…. I’m no mathematician, but that seems like more of the type of marketing bs we are all trying to avoid as ethical marketers.
And…
Top 30 under 30. Says reams.
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If you have a look at their advertised jobs on their (her), website, they are all written from the same ilk, slightly toned down from the junky plethora of a job ad that was pulled.
So no, not a PR stunt. This is who they are, who they want to be and be seen, and how they act. Terrible face for our industry.
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A couple of weeks ago I was forwarded a UX / UI job ad for the same agency for the LOLs. You’re not hiring “best in class” when your job ad excludes individuals based on lifestyle choice or level of perceived commitment to the role – you’re hiring “best of a narrow field of candidates who are willing to parrot the same drivel I spout”.
Would give their clients a wide berth – there’s at least one who isn’t exactly celebrated for their positive work culture either.
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If you have a look at their advertised jobs on their (her), website, they are all written from the same ilk, slightly toned down from the junky plethora of a job ad that was pulled.
So no, not a PR stunt. This is who they are, who they want to be and be seen, and how they act. Terrible face for our industry.
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Wins a 30 under 30 seven years ago and now acts like she can hire people to help her fix her life decisions.
This level of unethical entitlement is a disease in our industry and it needs to be completely stamped out.
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I’ll take a page from her book and begin this comment with ‘As a woman’…
As a woman, it’s infuriating to hear another woman justify the expectation to work 16 hours days and devote one’s entire life to their job as though it’s part of some kind of ‘corporate sisterhood’. Calling you out is not a slight on you ‘as a woman’, or ‘online bullying’ – it’s simply illustrating how ridiculous these job requirements are. It’s an insult to women who work in this industry that you use your sex as a mantle to protect yourself from criticism.
Referencing Sheryl Sandberg and using other meaningless buzzwords is exactly that – meaningless. You are a female CEO and have the ability to be a real leader for change, diversity and work/life balance in an industry full of overworked and underpaid talent.
With that in mind, I truly hope you can evolve from this experience.
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I’m not sure how this became so controversial – said someone responding to a stream of outrage. It’s a pretty dumb ad and unlikely to attract the best candidates. The fact tattoos and personal hygiene is even mentioned is guaranteed to turn smart people off the entire thing. Those people assume you are recruiting for talent and smarts and if you have those you’re unlikely to need these criteria. It’s also got too many responsibilities – very few humans can be good at that and getting the kids to ballet which seems to be part of the gig. The interview is pretty dumb too and it’s annoying but I suspect I’m not the target. However job ads are often for the clients – to see you are recruiting and how you talk about yourself and this is really not doing a great job. It implies chaos and lots of shouting and pointing and thats not really what clients want. They want order and strategy.
However she is a young woman having a go. She has started a business under her own steam and is trying to attract and employ staff on what seems like a pretty good salary. If she pays attention to some of the commentary she’ll be better off in future.
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As it sounds like Aleisha and her family are reading all of these comments, a suggestion for you all.
Help Aleisha cut ties with the Exponential Business Strategist. Clearly he hasn’t been helpful to her business and now his influence is having an impact on her personal reputation. Support her from getting the hell away from this toxic influence and get a chance to run the business herself.
Aleisha there are several female CEOs with families in the media industry who have staff that are extremely loyal. Ask them to mentor you instead.
Once you’ve flicked the so called business strategist, invest in a GM to help you run the business up instead of into the ground, then that should also give you the opportunity to find a true EA instead of this slave – because you’ll have time to run your own life again.
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Is she the ALT ROXY JACENKO?
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This is great banter
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Nobody that works there did 4 days a week while I was there
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More than a few that think this would be a good idea…
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I worked with all above mentioned staff before. And just like the “bad day” mentioned, I had one. I got called into the meeting room and told – if you have that kind of mood, it rubs off so stop doing it.
Essentially, I was told off for being in a bad place (mentally) and be “like a duck” (go frantic below the water, but be calm above). I respect people who can do that, but I could not.
I tell this story, because I had another boss, who did the same thing, but differently. This boss who I still greatly respect, tapped me on the shoulder and brought me into the meeting room. Calmly told me that my negative demenour is worrying my team. He told me the same duck story, then asked me, “So, what’s on your mind”. He stopped and cared about what was going in my life.
Ever since I’ve left UEC, this is something I’ve been wanting to tell Aleisha and Marc. They work hard, hats off to that. They may want to help you improve in their own way, I respect that. But I didn’t appreciate how I got treated in that meeting room.
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I could not agree with you more and I beg this woman to take a break, stop drinking her own cool-aid and actually become the role model her daughters should be proud of.
‘Woman’, ‘Mother’, ‘Working Mother’ or ‘Female’ are not excuses for this behaviour or the ridiculous expectations being implied on the candidate that would be unlucky enough to get this role.
You are one of a select few female CEOs and entrepreneurs in this industry and you have an obligation to be a leader that champions positivity, inclusivity, work-life balance and set expectations in the workplace that allow your staff to deliver their best without burning out at the age of 30.
Here is some advice from one C-Suite female to another. Stop the ‘poor me’ narrative, actively listen and read what your people have/are saying about you and your business (because it isn’t good) and find some humanity – not just for your business but for yourself and your own health and well being. And I promise if you do this, and make changes, you will not only find genuine perspective but an army of other women (and men) there to support and lift you up.
You may even find you won’t need job ads anymore as you will have a desk full of people asking to work and learn from a true leader.
Good Luck.
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I’m another ex UEC, who got forwarded this by another fellow UEC er.
To be fair to Aleisha, I have always had some degree of respect for her hard work, but it all stopped after one way.
One particular day, when I was having a “bad day” (just like anyone else), I got brought in to a meeting room by management (The two memeber mentioned) and told to “stop having a bad day” and be like a duck (paddling frantically below water but be calm above the water). Essentially told off for having a bad day, didn’t make my day any better.
The reason why this echoed to me, was because a few years before, I had another boss who did the same thing (clearly I didn’t learn the lesson). The difference was, after telling me about the duck, he then took me out for a coffee and said, “So, what’s on your mind”.
The first hand experience of the two nearly identical experience was, at UEC, work and work performance always came first. Were we ex UEC surprised to see this? Yes, that it got to this level, that they actually said what used to be more subtle. What was actually said, not at all.
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Did you not read it? This trainwreck is a gift that keeps on giving. Please do Pt III “The saga” 3 hour Mumbrellacast
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Let’s raise the salary to $250K and I’ll do it.
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I believe there may also be gender-based discrimination shaped in the ad by the use of words like ‘governess’…
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Why on earth would you want your executive PA to also be involved in your home life (nanny) – talk about seeing how the sausages are made…
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It looks like she is getting some bad advice from the business partner who comes with demonstrable failure as a business coach as reported in the smh..A little naive and brainwashed, but certainly not all her own doing.
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This comment and the comment from Z above are the most constructive pieces of advice on this entire topic. I have been following both of these articles with growing concern about what this would be doing to her mental health. She’s the young and sole founder of a business in a tough industry and she’s right to be proud of that. But she’s apparently made a questionable choice with her mentor/business strategist and it has clearly been extremely detrimental to her business. As this commenter says, cut ties with him. Look at your business through your own lens, get an honest and authentic GM to help you and start rebuilding your company’s reputation in a positive way.
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Well said. If women in leadership can only succeed by exploiting the women below them it’s not really progress.
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Agree!!!
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Please do the glassdoor follow up interview. 1.8 stars sounds horrible workplace
https://www.glassdoor.com.au/Reviews/Ultimate-Edge-Communications-Reviews-E2240231.htm
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hmm, the donna ad even made it to SMH. https://www.smh.com.au/national/myob-s-chief-set-to-take-business-council-reins-20190808-p52fbo.html
Why did she lie about it?
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Exactly, the ‘as a woman’ and “mum” bit seems a way of trying to fend off valid criticism.
And expecting people to be available most of the time probably breaches OH&S/worksafe issues.
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Overtime is a period that’s clearly defined and specified outside the allocated working hours. Nothing is clear here.
This ad was not only nebulous, contradictory, poorly written, narcissistic and patronising…it’s also a dismal attempt at trying to prop yourself up when you clearly have no credible clout.
Pls, just learn from this experience and do better.
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Aleisha I’ve only just stumbled across all this now and I’m sorry to have read these comments, which I know must be so painful for you to read too. But I do hope you’ll read and consider this comment carefully.
Firstly, you’ve made some major mistakes here, which you can and must learn from. If you’re maybe reassuring yourself that it’s ‘not that bad’, you really do need to pause for reflection. Trust me, it’s bad.
That’s not a criticism btw. It’s just an acknowledgement you need to make to yourself that you’ve made a mistake. A number perhaps. And the biggest mistake, from I can gather, is to let MD have such a pervasive and poisonous influence on you and your business. Again, if you’re reassuring yourself that he’s ‘not that bad’, you’re wrong. He’s bad for you. He’s bad for your business and brand. And he’s very bad for your people, who are the single most important thing you’ve got going for you.
What you’ve done really well up until now is to build your brand and your relationships and hopefully your business and your knowledge. Now you’re at a fork in the road where you can do what you’ve done here, and double-down in your own defence and defiance with more moves like this terrible interview (no criticism of Vivienne, who has been much kinder and fairer than she could have been). Or, you can can take a big and brave step forward and take all this good you’ve started and turn it into something bigger and better and real and true. Free of buzzwords and filled with just genuine, authentic, awesome you and your amazing people, who genuinely like and believe in you.
I hope you’ve worked out by now that you can’t do that with MD in your life though. Or any of the other poison or pretence that’s holding you back right now. If so, just learn from this, then leave it and move on (and whatever you do, don’t respond to any of these toxic comments here).
I wish you all the best.
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I came back to say I’m still laughing about this
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I wonder if their main clients Mortgage house, Virgin Active and Clear skin care clinics will keep this horrid agency or if they will move on to a proper agency.
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She has always been an exceptional objection handler… This interview was one be display of that.
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Agreed
Caught her on the hook, let her off the hook.
Didn’t push any of the openings. Was it an email interview?
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This is just wow.. I would front that bottle of NZ wine for that follow up
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This has probably already been said, but ‘being a woman’ does not give you a right to pose unrealistic and unhealthy work practices on new and existing employees. I am baffled by this interview and this organisation. For someone who works in communications you never actually get to your point and you reveal WAY too much information. Your business bio outlines the three stages of media buying, why? You say the names of candidates applying for the role, why? You even say the names of those candidates with children, why? As a client I would be very concerned, and as a working professional I am very concerned of the mental health of your staff and I know how horrible it can be to work in a business that is ‘all consuming’. You need to promote work life BALANCE. We do not live to work. And in your response to ‘keyboard warriors’ I am sure many of the people calling you out online would be happy to discuss this with you face to face, we just live in a world where this is the form of communication. Please reflect rationally on all of these comments and ask yourself if this is how you want to run your business. It’s not sustainable.
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They say nothing is new in the world. The “Strategist” advertised the same role last year, and SMH seem to have taken him to considerable task given his form at running a business into the ground.
Found here:
https://www.smh.com.au/national/myob-s-chief-set-to-take-business-council-reins-20190808-p52fbo.html
9/8/2019
DOCTOR WANTS A DONNA
Things must finally be looking up for self-styled business coach Marc Dussault.
Dr Dussault – for a doctor he is – is offering up to $250,000 for an “executive assistant extraordinaire”. Or as he puts it, a “Donna”.
Self-styled business coach Marc Dussault is looking for a “Donna” to sort out his fledgling comms shop. Illustration: Illustration: John Shakespeare
Self-styled business coach Marc Dussault is looking for a “Donna” to sort out his fledgling comms shop. Illustration: Illustration: John ShakespeareCREDIT:
That would be a reference to the all-seeing, all-knowing Donna Paulsen, Harvey Specter’s secretary in TV’s Suits, played by Sarah Rafferty.
Your man Dussault was once chairman of the now-collapsed motivational speaking outfit EmpowerNet. On his watch it reported about $27 million in losses and was described by this column in 2012 as “one of the dud listings of the last decade”.
These days he markets himself as “the world’s #1 Exponential Growth Strategist”. Go figure.
According to Dussault’s nightmarish 2637-word job ad, this is no ordinary gig. It’s a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to join him as he enters “the next phase of my career”.
And what is that? Well, he pledges to reveal his plans “privately, if we end up meeting”.
As Dussault acknowledged over the phone from a “work-cation” in Bali, the job is actually based in the Sydney office of Ultimate Edge Communications, where he’s engaged as a business strategist.
The “boutique” media/comms shop is run by a certain Aleisha McCall, a former junior figure skating champion and now wannabe Roxy Jacenko. UEC’s clients include voucher outfit RedBalloon and lender Mortgage House.
As far as the new hire goes, it seems like a standard Girl Friday gig at a small agency. But Dussault assures us it’s so much more.
For one, he demands the successful applicant give “24/7 commitment” for the next 5-10 years, and adopt “Exponential Mindset Thinking”, whatever that is.
In return, Dussault promises “deployment on a global scale” and remuneration up to $250,000 on a “results-reward basis”. But he tells CBD: “Most people aren’t worth that.”
Dussault says men are welcome to apply to become his next “Donna”, and that he’s already received some 32 responses – with 10 making the shortlist.
Good luck to them.
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Can you do a feature the successful candidate too?
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and people wonder why those outside the industry tend to regard advertisers/marketers as useless greedy grifters. well wonder no more. Look up Bill Hicks’ advice.
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