Naked boss rubbishes Papworth

Comments

TTFKAS
30 Mar 09
6:56 am



I think that’s becoming the default position if you’re an Australian Twitterer. She needs to turn the noise down……and it is mostly noise.

Stevejme
30 Mar 09
9:23 am



I find social media ‘experts’ are not marketing or communications professionals – just people who are good at making useless noise.

Adam Ferrier
30 Mar 09
9:30 am



Should be fun.

Hiphopopotumus
30 Mar 09
9:41 am



Gosh, Twitter is rapidly becoming a tool where people are afraid to say anything flippant or opinionated (or very interesting for that matter)… Anything you say if you work in marketing/advertising could end up under the microscope. Yikes.

mumbrella
30 Mar 09
9:55 am



Hi Hiphopopotumus,

Yes, Twitter is very much in the public domain. Unless you lock your updates, you’re talking to the outside world. Even if you have a smallish list of followers, anyone searching on a particular keyword can pick up your views on that subject. So you shouldn’t say something you’d be scared to have repeated.

But the good news is, in the marketing and advertising world, it’s generally okay for flippant or opinionated things to be repeated. It’s an industry that usually has a sense of humour.

Cheeers,

Tim – Mumbrella

Gary Hayes
30 Mar 09
4:58 pm



A few points around trust and reputation.

Out of the 3.5 million tweets so far on twitter, across the whole range of Human experience & business, Tim deciding to filter and forward this particular tweet says a lot. There are hundreds of tweets a day along these lines, someone de-following because of personal taste – most do it quietly, a few tell the world of their problem – and here lies the rub.

This is not about Naked managing parter (spelt wrong btw in your post) having a dig at SilkCharm or the quality of Laurel’s macro and micro blogging (which IMHO is far more insightful and informed than most) – no this is about Tim’s likely problem with someone who can actually ‘talk back’, give their opinion without recourse to the parochial nature of Sydney media community. It sounds like sour grapes – and I quote from Tim’s related post “Laurel Papworth put out a Twitter message over the weekend suggesting that Mumbrella should rethink its “snarky” tone.” Oh dear. She upset you didn’t she. Pats Tim’s head, a big ‘awww’ everyone.

So what does this say about reputation. That we better not say anything opinionated about Tim B because he will dig up some other unrelated dirt to throw back? Looks like it.

On a related, yes related note, we all take time to get up to speed with new channels but I would suggest it helps the new channel, in this case twitter, if those with very little experience of it are not held up as examples or quoted, particularly as they don’t really understand it. http://twitter.com/cfcnakedmike has 54 followers and most of his updates are far from engaging “relaxing bath after firefighting day” “who’s the girl in the gold dress?” “we’ll smell the lamb in cent park!” – SilkCharm is the number 1 twitter’er in Sydney and NSW at the moment with 4500 followers – I suspect we have here something I notice frequently in these circles, that of tall poppies.

Yes the industry has a sense of humour but I do wish it was less eager to cut down said poppies and be a little less spiteful of those being altruistic and willing to step out near the edge. Shame on those who do.

Ben
30 Mar 09
5:15 pm



my cats breath smells like cat food

TTFKAS
30 Mar 09
7:57 pm



@Gary that’s bull.

SilkCharm is the number 1 twitter’er in Sydney and NSW at the moment with 4500 followers – I suspect we have here something I notice frequently in these circles, that of tall poppies.

This is your value system? I find very little of what she tweets of any importance. In fact it’s inane passive aggressive stuff wrapped up in a faux cutesy style that’s designed to dominate the twitversation in this city….there is nothing altruistic is her approach.

Allocating power to volume of any kind is the problem, it’s a deceptive metric. So she’s noisy and a whole bunch of lowest common denominator folks (mostly BS marketing and social media hypemeister types) choose to receive her message, big deal.

The question I have is how many actually listen? I’m betting that a lot of those folks keep her in their stream only to give the Sydney conversation some context.

I’m sitting here thinking that there is no contextual mute button on Twitter is a problem.

Fi Bendall
30 Mar 09
8:00 pm



Big *Yawn* sensational rubbish that shows Naked still don’t the social in social marketing. Individual collaboration, individual organization of which Papworth is one of, part of the whole. Unfortunately the agencies think they own something they don’t. SMC – having serious reservations now.

Gary Hayes
30 Mar 09
8:40 pm



@TTFKAS – not my value system no. Try

1 twurl.nl/hpjngq Twitter Grader that puts her regularly from position 1-5 in NSW

2 twurl.nl/mn2yaf Twitterholic top 1-5

3 twurl.nl/igmpm5 Top 12 Influencers on ShiftedPixels

4 twurl.nl/snlafy 20 Australian’s you should follow on Twitter, Marketing Easy

and more – then we have traditional media seeking expert opinion from Laurel about Twitter SMH twurl.nl/2ugtql Company Director, The Age, Radio National the list goes on.

To me she demonstrates a key difference between the rather cold, conservative and ‘frightened’ old school media/marketing types who really don’t know how to be human in the real time web. Coming from a background of many years of online community management and knowing how to engage with online groups puts her in a much better position than those used to ‘pushing’ marketing messages. Often those are the ones who see ‘conversation’, humanity, as noise. Join that club TTFKAS

Fi Bendall
30 Mar 09
9:13 pm



Gaz, you don’t have to defend her, ppl feel threatened thats all. Pap’s is all cool.
There is about 20% of ppl who say they work in digital who get it, the rest don’t and you know and I know who they are. Maybe Dr. Mumbo should take one of Laurel’s training course’s? But that may take away from the headlines.

TTFKAS
30 Mar 09
9:53 pm



@Gary the fact that you have resorted to quoting the same old media style dodgy “ratings” shows that you not only accept the numbers but don’t get it – re-inforces my point. You are placing importance on something without value or meaning.

It’s like a social media version of a bubble economy.

Just about all of those ‘rankings” are based on the following/follower/noise metrics and as such are effectively meaningless.

Seth Godin has more conversation and influence in a blog post that has no comments than Papworth and her ilk ever will with their obsessive need for noisy influence. Sometimes people need to learn to shut up and listen.

As for marketers and evangelists conversations being human, well they are anything but. Just the same old sell dressed up as “conversation” on a shiny new platform.

Lets not pretend that it is something else shall we?

Tim - Mumbrella
30 Mar 09
9:57 pm



Hi Gary,

Thanks for your points – well argued.

And no, I certainly wouldn’t want people to think they couldn’t criticise. I’m always delighted to put my head above the parapet and see what comes back my way.

But two points:

1. Naked have one of the most controversial profiles within social media. When one of their bosses comments on one of the social media establishment’s pillars, it’s worthy of comment, albeit on this occasion in Dr Mumbo, our diary column.

2. I don’t think Laurel needs you to come to her defence from Mike, or from me. There’s lots we disagree about, and there’s been much banter back and forth, both here, and on Laurel’s own site, over the last few months. It’s the beauty of social media – there are no right or wrong answers, but lots of debate along the way.

If you haven’t seen that, I can see how you’d put two and two together and make five. But no, it’s not personal. Correcting Laurel’s mistaken views on “heritage media” among many, many other things are part of life’s rich tapestry. And I look forward to her continuing to explain the errors of my ways for some time yet.

Cheers,

Tim – Mumbrella

Gary Hayes
30 Mar 09
10:41 pm



Moving slightly away from the main topic like most threads featuring ‘ranting’ anonymous folk, and out onto the edge of the circular ‘how do we measure influence’ discussion – I wonder TTKFAS if you have any effective metrics beyond vague ‘personal’ taste?

Even then influence, measured by personal ‘likes/dislikes’ to have any meaning, needs to be counted and aggregated by voting / rating / following / linking / commenting / buying and so on because these are all manifest metrics of personal taste…or do you have something more profound to work out influence? You cannot measure “Godin is better than Papworth” – it is subjective. You can ask a 1000 people who is better, but then even that is a blunt result (40/60) – so you look at the discussions / links around both…which brings us back to lists. Decent lists reflect a measurement of discussion, reputation, trust in some form and take into account what you have said before (to bring it back to the item at hand) – track record.

This is where I feel ‘you’ don’t get it TTKFAS because ‘your’ being anonymous in ‘this’ discussion – precludes you from validity. You have no history. Your digital trust and reputation probably based on years of ranting anonymously and personally attacking people on forums preclude you from those measurements – these, as we are seeing more and more, are very important attributes. The positive/negative keywords from anonymous comments are only half the story because they do not have a history to give them context – which will be valued measurements.

But still keen to hear your views on measuring influence – not that if you had any you would share publically because that is not the type of person you are.

If you don’t want to hear SilkCharm, unfollow, but I suspect as is given away in your first comment you ‘have’ to follow her because you need that context as deep down you feel you will eventually learn something from her

Thanks Tim for clarifying why you needed to do what you did.

Anonymous cos it'll annoy Gary
30 Mar 09
11:12 pm



Woah – dude, Gary – chill the heck out.

Are you genuinely this humourless, or are your postings a clever satire?

You really have been drinkin the Papworth cool aid, haven’t you? I don’t think it would be 40-60 Papworth-Godin if a vote was taken. That’s hilarious. Shall we try it?

“Why you needed to do what you did” That’s as passive aggressive language as a Silkcharm blog post. No wonder you’re such a fan.

“Not the type of person you are” Tell me more insights.

Hang on, I’ve got to go and follow Silkcharm. Apparently it will give my life context…

Gary Hayes
30 Mar 09
11:43 pm



Hi Anon – as your unable to continue in any meaningful way, I will sign off this fizzled out thread – with a a ‘no worries’ and a “see you after the commercial break”

Charlie B
31 Mar 09
9:24 am



Gary – For the sake of disclosure,

(As I can’t verify what this poster says, I’m editing most of this comment. Tim – Mumbrella)

Charlie B
31 Mar 09
9:55 am



Tim – http://laurelpapworth.com/worl.....cond-life/

The white pages will also verify my comment – I obviously don’t want to post an address here.

Anonymous
31 Mar 09
10:10 am



Gary,

A little disclosure goes a long way:

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=517517305

Charlie B
31 Mar 09
11:19 am



Tim – both laurel and gary’s facebook profiles have them as “in a relationship” with each other.

This information gives an important lens to the comments on this thread. Gary can accuse the Australian Industry of having tall poppy syndrome, but surely he could admit he might be slightly biased towards Laurel in light of his relationship with her.

My mum thinks I’m great, but if she weighed into a debate about my influence then surely her opinion might be seen as slightly less credulous, given that she thinks I’m tops and can do no wrong.

mumbrella
31 Mar 09
11:37 am



Hi Charlie,

Thanks for your comment. The reason for deleting your original comment was that it was not backed up by facts that I could immediately verify, and it did tend to draw implications about Gary’s motivation. But as you, and the anonymous poster point out in the link above, there is also public domain info.

However, let’s not forget that Gary could have posted his comments anonymously, but openly put his name to them. Regardless of any affiliations, he’s absolutely entitled to his view, and to state it.

Cheers,

Tim – Mumbrella

clive Burcham
31 Mar 09
11:42 am



now now, back to work………..PS: who’s being billed for this?

Gary Hayes
31 Mar 09
1:48 pm



Yes excellent detective work – anon. But we are quite public about our partnership (twitter, facebook, blogs, RL events, YouTube, Flickr and so on).

As regards your comparing this with your mum and you, could I suggest this is slightly different given Laurel and I having separately over 25 years experience in media as producers, innovators, managers & creatives – but there again perhaps you and your mum have

As Tim said I have a lot of validity in this discussion too running Australia’s premier media innovation development lab lamp.edu.au for 4 years and 8 years experience as Senior Development Producer at BBC UK New Media and a top 10 Australian Marketing Blog personalizemedia.com – but there again perhaps your mum has?

Finally I am proud and honoured to be in a relationship with Laurel, a special woman, who helped build the digital industry in Australia and who is also a shining light in the Oz Media & Educational landscape because she speaks her mind, telling it like it is, with clarity (and to get back on the already dead topic – doesn’t hide like a coward behind anonymity in discussions that become personal.

On a positive note congrats to the first Australian media company to win an International Emmy last night the LAMP Mentored Social Media, MultiPlatform Scorched – http://lamp.edu.au/2009/03/31/.....tive-emmy/

Anon
31 Mar 09
2:15 pm



Gary, great to read your resume, thanks. I’ve learned a bit more about you and I’m glad that I now know you think you’re more experienced than someone else’s mum.

touche Mr Hayes, touche.

Gary Hayes
31 Mar 09
2:34 pm



Hi Anon – re: Charlie B’s mom being experienced, we shall never know, we shall never know. Signing off.

Doug Chapman
31 Mar 09
3:25 pm



I think I will invite Gary and TTFKAS as the next guest speakers @SMCSYD.

Uncle Buck
31 Mar 09
3:33 pm



TTFKAS – ‘circlejerk’ is a good term for that social bubble.

I’m someone who joined Twitter, looked at the lists, and followed Silkcharm. Then I started to find her posts a little meh and unfollowed. Did the same with servantofchaos, problogger, and various others. Each to their own I guess.

Not anonymous
31 Mar 09
6:25 pm



Gary, as you are in the know, can you please tell me 5 commercial brands in Australia that Laurel has helped in relation so social media, and what the projects were? Laurel seems to be a self proclaimed expert, but where is the evidence? And government workshops dont count

TTFKAS summed it up perfectly – “inane passive aggressive stuff wrapped up in a faux cutesy style “

Anonymous 2
31 Mar 09
6:35 pm



Your a little terrier not anon. I like that in a Troll – but you do need to go on a baiting/troll course – very weak. Also some kindergarten research skills would help…I just found this from her site http://laurelpapworth.com/about/

Laurel has consulted with a substantial number of companies, not for profits and government departments in Australia, Asia and Middle East including:

Telecom New Zealand, Middle East Broadcasting (Dubai/Saudi Arabia), Fairfax: RSVP Dating Community, Sony Corporation, Universal McCann Erickson WorldWide, CHANNEL TEN: including Australian Idol community, Sulake: Makers of Habbo, Macquarie Leisure, Macquarie Media, New Holland Publishing, Australasian, Performing Right Association (APRA), Peoplebrowsr, MySongcast.com unsigned bands community, Australian Businesswomens’ Network, Pink Sofa online community, ABC Australia, National Archives of Australia (gov), Department of State and Regional Development (gov), Department of Primary Industry (gov), Australian Film Television and Radio School (edu), University of Sydney (edu, public), University of Western Sydney (edu, Masters program).

and testimonials http://laurelpapworth.com/testimonials/

Anonymous
1 Apr 09
7:13 pm



Everything sad, pathetic and wrong with social media is included in this thread (including this holier than thou, but ultimately irresponsoble comment)

Anony
1 Apr 09
7:46 pm



The worst aspect of social media (which reflects society), is chicken shit, anonymous ‘cowardly’ commenting and blogs would do well to turn them off especially in cases like this where personal attaks appear. Not turning them off reflects the ‘Jerry Springer’ mentality of the blog owner who prefers flaming, comment wars, over civil discussion…shame on all anons and those who allow/encourage it for traffic…

Jill
5 Apr 09
12:38 am



Tim would be wise to remove that last comment. In fact the whole thread has no place on a reputable media blog – unless he did intention a character assassination from the outset?

mumbrella
5 Apr 09
10:50 am



Thanks, Jill. I’ve removed the posting you mention.

While I’m all for robust debate and that includes critcising ideas and executions, the line we draw is if a comment is libelous, personally insulting to someone or draws conclusions on their bias or motivation.

Cheers,

Tim – Mumbrella

Ben Gotto Smith
7 Apr 09
4:46 pm



Blimey I think lots of us are ‘too sweet to tweet’ with all the scrutiny

rebekah horne
7 Apr 09
8:22 pm



this is the funniest thing I have read in a while…thank you thank you. I checked into mumbrella to get an update on what’s going on in Aust. heartening to see its the big issues we’re dealing with….

Peter D
9 Apr 09
6:33 pm



Wow this is epic reading. Thanks for the entertainment.

Barb
10 Apr 09
9:43 am



funny how the experts are so desperately territorial about something – by their own admission – we can’t and should seek to control … i.e. online and social media. Bit pointless really,

but then as they say ‘cobblers children have no shoes.’ One of life’s greatest ironies is most people are always hopeless at their own profession

Yawn
10 Apr 09
4:40 pm



This thread just goes to show the reason why anyone who makes anonymous personal comment (just like this one – no link to a real life person) is a reflection of the worst aspects of humanity – cowardly mud slinging idiots. Shame on mumbrella for allowing it and hats off to those who ‘really’ identified themselves (regardless of what they said) in the above nonsense…

Bret Treasure
13 Apr 09
1:18 pm



Some pretty average performances here.

The relationship between Gary and Laurel was relevant to the matter being discussed and should have been disclosed by Gary who was pretending objectivity.

Also, I don’t think it reflects well on the Naked guy that he publicly tweeted about unfollowing Laurel. Like a little kid in a playground telling everyone; “I’m not friends with her anymore”.

Leslie Nassar
20 Apr 09
1:53 pm



Man, I loves me a good trainwreck.

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

1. Viral is Not Social. It is a Virus | www.nickhodge.com